By Jason Morris (Manfriday) (131.225.157.100) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 10:56 am:

Hi,

I realize larry posts here alot, and hopefully he wont be offended by me asking other folks on the board about his Character series of training CD roms. Unfortunatley I cannot find any info about them, as far as reviews etc..

Has anyone else used them? Having done a little low-poly modeling for games and such.. and I am working my way thru Dan's awsome book, I am still kinda at the beginning levels.

What are your thoughts on this series of CD-ROMs?
How many CD roms are there in the series? Is it just a single CD rom with video tutorials?
Is the cost of the tutorials justified in your opinion?
I know the cost of the tutorials is pretty darn good when compared to going to a "real" training seminar, but it's still quite a bit of $$ for a hack like me. However, I wouldnt mind giving one of these training sets a go if I thought it might really be worthwile.

thanks

Jason

By Mark Curtis (Yog) (195.92.198.74) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 04:27 pm:

They're great CD's. For the first part, "Character Modelling" there are 2 CD's containing about 12 hours of video.

Unlike other video tutorials I have seen there are no breaks where the tutor comes back and says "and this is what it looks like after 2 hrs of tweeking", although Larry breaks it down into 10/20 minute chuncks, every bit of modelling and tweeking is done on screen.

I have very little experience of organic modelling but Larry is very thourough and saves the model to a seperate layer every 5 mintues or so and is available reference on the CD.
The online question and answer sessions are also very good. You can imagine Larry just itching to be asked a question.

By kevin phillips (Kevman) (210.48.10.96) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 02:53 am:

Jason, I know how you feel...

I'm only doing the character modelling part of the series at this stage - I'm spreading my finances so I can budget and save a little (cause of my new job having less security - Its a 4 month contract, freelancing)

This course is not cheap, but IMHO, its been the best investment so far in LW training material because your getting taught by a professional modeler/animator who works for Foundation (Max steel, Dan Dare, Roughnecks, etc) and more importantly, the course concentrates on good technique and workflow as well as the character stuff.

I would repeat exactly what Mark has said... You get 2 CD's full of video material, some models and reference images... And then there's the online discussion group.

The best part has been that you post your image up to the list, and the next day, Larry's hilighted all the key areas that need improvement, etc. It makes you realise how you need to think as well.

I have a lot of respect for Larry - He really, really knows his stuff. (and that's an understatement)

By Brian Burgess (Bburgess) (192.156.75.34) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 06:51 am:

Larry who? And where can you get these training CD-ROM's?

Brian

By Neil Campbell (Neil_Campbell) (158.234.250.66) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:06 am:

Another vote in favour. I've never done any real organic modelling before, having stuck mainly with architecture and the like. But having worked through half of one CD, I can say I would now feel comfortable building a character from nothing - albeit it would still take me a lot longer than Larry. And talking of speed that's one of the big benefits - you can go at your own pace, and if you don't get something first time around you just replay it and attempt to duplicate it again and again.

One of the elements I also really enjoy about this course is that beyond the modelling of the character, Larry also takes time out in the middle of some of the tutorials to explain concepts such as polygon flow and how it's affected by spin quads, which are totally new to me (who live by orthogonals and tangents).

In terms of the price, this seems perfectly reasonable given the sheer number of hours of tuition provided.

I'm looking forward to the rest of this series.

By Matt Clary (Mattclary) (208.255.196.15) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:08 am:

Yeah, who's this Larry guy?

By Neil Campbell (Neil_Campbell) (158.234.250.66) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 07:09 am:

The course is run by Larry Shultz

Check out http://www.splinegod.com/professional_character_series.htm


Neil

By Brian Burgess (Bburgess) (192.156.75.35) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 08:03 am:

For those of you who have used these training CD's ... how do you feel about the quality of the AVI files? Was the resolution good enough to see what the instructor is demonstrating?

Thanks,

Brian

By Jason Morris (Manfriday) (131.225.157.100) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 08:12 am:

OK, now im getting excited. I think im gonna have to get the first in the series today.

Im also interested in the quality of the AVI files.. how is it?

By Neil Campbell (Neil_Campbell) (158.234.250.66) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 09:53 am:

The video was fine if you run at about 100% and 900*700 - ie not stretched / compressed. But don't quote me on the exact figures - it was somewhere around there.

You get to see the entire Modeller screen - menus and tabs, plus 4 viewports (normally 3 wireframe and 1 snooth shaded). I could see the points and polys, the mouse, etc. There were times when parts of the screen went ever so slightly "fuzzy", probably some kind of compression artefact, but that was only for a couple of frames and has never caused me a problem - there are no drop-outs like you sometimes see on really heavily compressed video.

The only time I had to do a double-take was trying to catch up on a few of Larry's moves with the mouse / buttons - sometimes a couple of actions follow pretty quickly - but as has been said above, Larry explains literally every command (Smooth Shift, rotate, Ctrl-T, ....) - there's none of this "After a bit of tweaking here's one I built earlier" and then he shows you an object with twice as much geometry as previously - you get to see every selection, drag, cut and paste he makes, from beginning to end, including where he changes his mind and undoes it, no editing at all.

The CDs also contain object files - basically Larry saves each stage of his work as a new layer, so you've got every poly he's built.

I'd have no hesitation in recommending the CDs to anyone who wants to learn how to model characters, and I have signed up for the remaining 3 parts of the series (texturing, rigging, animating).

By kevin phillips (Kevman) (203.97.64.227) on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 10:02 pm:

I ran the videos (all in WMV format) on a Win2K PC with Mediaplayer 7 and got great quality (very crisp, very little artifacting) even when full screened or slightly shrunk. But definitely playing at 100% is best.

This first modelling course is a definite recommendation from me! I've just built some pretty cool looking ears in less then 2 hours last night (from never ever building ears before!) - Larry's techniques are fast and efficient!

Like I said, you don't just learn some easy and quick ways to create characters but you learn good technique and workflow. As Neil says, theres no 'Here's a head I put in the oven a few hours ago'-style teaching. You see every tweak he makes, and you learn to discipline yourself and to keep going.

Well worth the money IMHO. If you thought that the characters from Max steel, Dan Dare or Roughnecks were awesome, well, here's some techniques that show you the skills you need to master to do that kind of stuff - No kidding! All you need is reference material to help you get the look and feel right, and the course gives you the rest of the skills you need to apply it in LightWave!

Doh, I'm starting to sound like an infomercial! Maybe Larry could chuck in a set of Ginsu Steak Knives as well?

By Jason Morris (Manfriday) (131.225.157.100) on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 07:24 am:

Thanks guys.

I just ordered the first in the series.

Im excited to get them and get started!

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.74.85.38) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 03:19 am:

Ive been busy for a few days and just now saw this thread. You guys make ME want to buy those CDs too! I just want to thank everyone for the input and comments. I want to thank everyone in this first group because its really helped me tune things. All I can say is wait til you see the rest of the series. Thanks!

By Jason Morris (Manfriday) (216.214.252.103) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 08:17 am:

Hey Larry.. if you were to buy the series would you cut yourself a special deal on them? on account of you knowing yourself and all?

By Roy Hinkle (Jr_Sunshine) (192.58.199.180) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 09:46 am:

Larry,

I'm only interested in the CHaracter Rigging seminar. Can you just buy the one seminar?

thanks,
Roy

By Jason Morris (Manfriday) (216.214.252.103) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:40 am:

yeah you can buy one seminar at a time.

they are 250 a pop or 800 for the whole deal.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.74.85.38) on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 10:50 am:

Each of the parts are sold separately, yes. I SHOULD cut myself a special deal now that I think about it

By kevin phillips (Kevman) (210.48.24.95) on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 04:22 am:

Yeh, and send yourself a set of Ginsu steak knives to sweeten the deal at the same time - You won't regret it... Those Ginsu blades are top notch stuff! (Oh, and the 3D course material is OK too!)

By Albin Klein (Albinklein) (200.82.142.18) on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 09:10 pm:

Hey Larry told me about it and now I am reading the posts here I am deciding to buy them myself...

I have neen in a seminar with Larry last year at Orlando and he is a great teacher, HE CAN KEEP ANSWER SILY QUESTIONS ALL DAY LONG!!! hahahahaha

Yo Larry you got a deal with me.....I am just waiting for the money to spend it...one thing...don't waste it OK?....buy me a beer next time we go to Pleasure Island OK?.... ;)

Anyway I am your new servant MASTER!!!

Talk to you later Larry....hope I'll make the deal by the end of this week.

Catch cha' leta

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.27.160.204) on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:27 am:

LOL, Hey Albin, you come to LA Ill take you to magic mountain. Thanks!

By Andy Lackow (Craftmatic) (209.244.235.167) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:06 am:

Hi Larry,

I am posting, partly so that I can get updates from this discussion sent to my email address, but also because I have become more curious about your courses. When you wrote me, I said that I couldn't afford it. I had looked at the top banner on the page at http://www.splinegod.com/professional_character_series.htm and saw a special for"Get 3 months for 3 monthly payments of $300.00" and immediately assumed that that was the deal. Now I realize from the posts here and scrolling down your site's page that there are separate courses $250 ea.

I am wondering if the "online" reference means that part of the training is done as a web-based seminar or is it just 2 CDs that I could do at my own pace. Is there any timeframe/schedule I would be limited to and if so when does it start? It would be hard for me to commit to a schedule because of other obligations which is why I need to do it at my own pace.

The other reason that I am interested is because like one of the people who posted above, I have done mostly architectural and non-organic modeling and, as good as Dan Ablan's book is, I can't imagine taking the time to create a head the way his tutorial describes everytime I need to model a character. It just seems to long.

Any feed back would be appreciated. Thanks.

By Andy Lackow (Craftmatic) (4.43.236.197) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:26 am:

Oh one more thing... Since you are the self-proclaimed "Spline God" I was wondering after my tinkering in MAX with spline ("shapes") modification (which is in ways better than Illustrator - i.e. the "fillet" tool for quickly creating and controling curved corners, etc.) and then trying to duplicate the lofting technique in MAX with LW's rail extrusion along a spline path and becoming very frustrated with LW's "Bezier" and "Spline Draw" tools - is there any decent way to work with splines in LW that I am missing?

By Andy Lackow (Craftmatic) (4.43.236.197) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:35 am:

Yes it's me again. Well I answered my first question (I scrolled down the page and read it - duh!). It says "The course is an ongoing program and ANYONE can join in ANYTIME." So why then is it called a "Two Month Online Course?" Does that mean I am only linited to 2 months access to the Yahoo user group?

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.27.160.204) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 12:40 pm:

Hey Andy!
Actually the SplineGod thingy wasnt self proclaimed...its a LOOONG story. As you can tell I like splines. Lightwave splines work a bit differently then they way some other packages handle them. I like the fact that they are flexible to use and simple. With organic modeling I use them mainly as a layout tool. Some of the others here might give you their opinion of how I use them. I do cover splines in the CDs.
As far as the 2 month part goes...Ive been very flexible about the online support part. Originally I figured that there would be LOTS of questions but there wasnt. That worried me some originally but everyone on the list told me that the CDs were that easy to follow. Most of the posts to the list have been works in progress and critiquing them. To be honest, doing classes and supporting them online is new for me and new for most of the people taking the course. I had an idea in my head of how this would go and how it should or might be done. I decided to be very flexible about the online support part. Ive steered more towards a self paced concept because many of the people taking it have very different schedules. Some are far along and some arent yet. If you are really interested in this sort of thing I dont think youll be disappointed.

By Andy Lackow (Craftmatic) (4.43.236.197) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 04:19 pm:

Larry,

Thanks for your reply. Thankfully I am so busy now that I don't have time for much else, but I am hoping I make enough money to get the first course CDs soon. I would hate to have to turn down work that might come my way because I don't have the skill sets that your training offers. I have had to turn down such potential opportunities in the past.

I am most curious about what your take is on LW's spline tools as I still can't imagine them being very useful. I am hoping your course sheds some light on the matter, but I am still skeptical after using MAX's excellent spline tools. BTW, I'm not trying to dis LW; I love the program - it is my bread and butter app, but if it had the spline tools that MAX had, I'd be very happy. As it is, I have always had to do my linear "template" work in Illustrator and then import the EPS files to extrude or lathe in LW. I wish I didn't have to do that and could do all of it in LW.

By Kevin F Stubbs (Kevinfstubbs) (213.106.132.58) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 05:34 pm:

Andy,

If you want a good, quick introduction to splines and their usage you could do worse than to pick up a copy of Lightwave Applied Version 6.5 & 7. It features a number of spline tutorials including the extensive online bonus tutorial (very detailed) which takes you through the construction of a complete female elf character. You are then shown how to rig it in a follow up tutorial in the printed book. Both of these were written by Jennifer Hachigian. The instructions work just as well in LW7 and 7.5 as I discovered when I worked through it myself. Jennifer was taught by Larry, which should also serve as a good advert for Larry's course (I'm also saving up for it )

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.27.160.204) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 08:04 pm:

Each program implements things in different ways. Lightwave splines are quite good and very powerful when used properly.
Jennifer has definately taken whatever I taught her and run with it.

By Paul Goodrich (Pdg) (66.114.244.127) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 10:24 pm:

Larry,
I've not had any luck getting the videos to work. I
got the modeling CD's. I suspect this is because I'm on a Mac, I guess my question is do I need the Windows media player for Mac and has anyone else tried to do this on a Mac? Or is there a codec/plugin for Quicktime? Or do I need to
install a windows media player plugin for Internet Explorer? Anybody got any ideas? Thanks
Paul Goodrich

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (66.27.160.204) on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 11:10 pm:

Yes Paul you have to download the windows media player for the Mac. There are others who are using the Mac to view the wmv files. I emailed the URL to microsofts site several days ago. I guess you didnt get it?

By Paul Goodrich (Pdg) (66.114.244.135) on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 10:55 pm:

No, I didn't. I'm begaining to wonder if my ISP is
getting dodgy. Someone else emailed me something recently that I didn't get as well, hmmm.
Paul Goodrich

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (216.244.13.211) on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 09:08 am:

Ive converted over to using quicktime. The amount of material hasnt changed but it comes on one CD now instead of two.

By Shaun Ledgerwood (Vwtornado) (66.7.21.158) on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 10:26 am:

Here is the link to the MAC version of Windows Media Player for anyone who can't find it.

Mac OS 9: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=75ee2b64-5184-422a-91b6-20eed03e6175&DisplayLang=en

Mac OS X: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=25ca4358-4cda-4dc5-a5ec-c459958be0ac&DisplayLang=en