By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (210.50.30.4) on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 06:49 pm:

This problem has been covered by earlier threads, but I wanted someone from Newtek to confirm that they are looking into it.

Quicktime files cannot be used as backdrops or image maps in Lightwave (OS X) at 25fps. LW tries to convert it to 30fps, resulting in every fifth frame being a repeat of the fourth frame. This results in stuttery playback.

It's a major problem, but I imagine that it would be relatively easy for Newtek to fix. I'd like someone from Newtek to say that this problem has been noted.

Julian Johnson previously provided a Quicktime to demonstrate this problem, which you can download:
http://www.exch.demon.co.uk/sidebyside_soren.mov
This movie is 240k, so it should only take about 30 seconds to download on a dial-up connection.

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.146.120.115) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 01:05 pm:

Agreed, this is a big problem.

I have to say, I've been troubled by this for ages thinking I must be doing something wrong, until I carried out some tests which proved that it WAS Lightwave. It ment that Lightvawe was quite useless for the work I needed to do. Really terrible.

Julian's movie is an excellent example of what's being discussed here. Thank you Julian.

I think someone from Newtek should respond.

By js33 (Js33) (12.237.176.188) on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 07:47 pm:

I assume you are using 25fps for PAL output?
Otherwise I see no reason to use 25fps.
Also LW likes single frame sequences better than trying to use QT or AVI clips so why not just
convert the clips you want to use and quit whinning about it?

Cheers,
JS

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.135.245.103) on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 11:50 am:

"see no reason to use 25fps"

Yeah right. Are you from Newtek JS?

I suppose, it is irritating that Newtek and this forum (the whole world?) is so US centric. In video work, and that's what we are talking about here, the problem afflicts largely non NTSC areas, so why bother to fix it? Most probably, they haven't even bothered to test it in 25fps!

"why not just convert the clips you want to use and quit whinning (do you mean whining?) about it?"

You can, but why should you? It takes time and creates huge files - destroys the work flow. And time is money, as they say.

Lightwave claims to be a professional piece of kit and it's not exactly cheap either.

What about the helpful support team?

By Vincent Rea (Thevman) (130.194.13.161) on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 10:01 pm:

I agree with Hon, its just plain lazy of newtek to let this problem persist, at the very least newtek should release a statement acknowledging that the problem exists and what they plan to do about it and E-mail it to all owners of LW!

It's just not acceptable for them to leave the PAL QT movie issue unresolved, people pay good money for your software NewTek and we shouldn't have to just put up with OUTSTANDING bugs or create work arounds.

How many people on this web board just want the software to work the way its meant to.

By Jon Baker (Jdavidbakr) (65.67.204.165) on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 09:23 am:

I've worked with a couple (by no means a large number) of 3D packages, and every single one of them works far better with image sequences than with QT files, and what I hear around other software is the same. I always work in LW in tga files, they are small and don't take that long to convert in AE. If you are using network rendering, too, you aren't forcing the whole QT movie to be sent over the network all the time either. It just seems to me to be a better setup.

I know, we Mac people like QT, but 3D in general like image sequences.

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.156.86.22) on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 12:28 pm:

I think this is missing the point.

First, the claim that 3D packages generally don't like QT would be hard to substantiate. Maya is the second top end program on Mac OS beside LW and it seems to have no problem with QT, as far as I can tell. The other, more mid range products work with QT like a dream - they positively love it. Never had a problem. Even with a network.

Secondly, LW claims to work with QT, it has all the appropriate settings, but it's buggy - and NewTek people probably think that we should lump it. Well, I don't like it.

Some geeks love workarounds though.

By js33 (Js33) (12.237.176.188) on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 03:05 pm:

Hi Jan,

[[["see no reason to use 25fps"

Yeah right. Are you from Newtek JS?]]]

Hehehehe. No I don't work for NT.

The simple fact is LW works on a frame basis and trying to import a QT or AVI for that matter to use as a sequence is usually problematic in any 3D app. If you simply make tga sequences it will work without any problem.

Now QT and AVI will work fine as an output medium which is what they were designed for.

Cheers,
JS

By Vincent Rea (Thevman) (130.194.13.161) on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 05:00 pm:

JS, Unfortunately thats not the issue here.

Why does Newtek claim LW can use PAL QT files
WHEN IT CANT, this is false advertising.

Secondly I have the same 5th frame trouble outputting scenes to QT files, I understand that image sequences are probably better for output but from my experience it takes me longer to load the image sequence then export the sequence to .mov file, rather than just have the .mov file ready for use. Time is money!

By js33 (Js33) (12.237.176.188) on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 08:44 pm:

Hi Vincent,

I understand you want to use QT files. I just suggested a way to use them that would work.

Also it could be a QT codec issue.

If you are using 25fps QT's is lightwave set to render at 25fps instead of 30fps (which is the default)?

Cheers,
JS

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.162.145.87) on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 06:06 am:

It entirely depends on what you want to do JS. (I didn't really think you work for NewTek)

I'm sure, I don't have to give you examples of situations where converting large QT files is simply not feasible. In such circumstances LW becomes a useless product quite unfit for the job it's advertised and therefore intended to perform.

NewTek should explain their position on this.

PS. The default is 30fps, you have to change it to 25fps every time you open LW.

Something tells me that it wouldn't take NewTek much to fix this bug. If they did, it would make life so much easier. That's why I'm so fed up.

I would appreciate if you guys could help to put pressure on NewTek to act as they should, instead of going on about some obvious workarounds.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (210.50.30.6) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:03 am:

Those saying that it's not an issue are Windows users who don't have to put up with this bug.

The Lightwave/Quicktime fault has been extensively tested and is not user error. It is a tremendous burden in the production flow.

You can really get into a total bind. You can use QTpro to convert the QT into an image sequence, but sometimes LW doesn't recognize these, either. It may have something to do with the way that QTpro tags these image files.

Regardless, Lightwave should be able to output to Quicktime and use Quicktime image maps, whatever the frame rate. I agree that it would be a relatively easy bug for Newtek to fix.

By Vincent Rea (Thevman) (130.194.13.180) on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 08:24 pm:

Righton Beam!!

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.171.8.50) on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 04:12 pm:

Is Newtek there to say something...

By Vincent Rea (Thevman) (130.194.13.180) on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 04:49 am:

It is said that silence is golden, well maybe not always.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (210.50.30.21) on Wednesday, October 30, 2002 - 04:57 pm:

Has everyone emailed Newtek tech support yet? If you haven't, here's the address:

tech@newtek.com

If anyone gets an acknowledgment of this problem, please post it here.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 10:23 pm:

I hope that when Newtek releases a service upgrade for Lightwave (version 7.6 maybe?) that this Quicktime issue doesn't get forgotten.

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.157.150.254) on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 04:50 pm:

Isn't there anyone at Newtek to respond?

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 06:06 am:

I have also been wondering why nobody from Newtek has responded to this. Do they not believe that the problem exists, or not wish to acknowledge it?

It's OK to use image sequences if Lightwave is in an isolated environment, but when media is being bounced between different programs (Quicktime based programs) and different people in the production process, it slows things down when you can't use Quicktime. It also creates larger file sizes.

I'd not only like to see Quicktime functionality restored to Lightwave, but see it enhanced.

I'd like:
1. The ability to use QT image maps and backgrounds at speeds other than 30fps

2. The option to use straight "fader" alphas with Quicktime

3. The option to render to 64-bit Quicktime codecs. Lightwave currently only supports the use of common 32-bit Quicktime codecs. If you're curious as to what 64-bit QT codecs are about, have a look at Microcosm:
http://www.digitalanarchy.com/product_micro.html

By Jeffrey Terrell (Jeff) (68.102.44.253) on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 04:06 am:

I'v had pretty much the same "stuttering" problem as well. I also have the recent QT-Pro. I set the camera in LW to NTSC D1, I set the Display/General Options to 25 fps, 30 fps, 54 fps and I'v even used 60 fps. On the Render Panel I have QT.mov as output w/No Compression @ millions + colors, I also set the appropriate fps as assigned and discussed earlier in the D/G options panel. After the render, playback on QT Player is virtually pathetic with hesitations and pauses, and stuttering. However, I also use Final Cut Pro,(which is also a QT format based program) and when I "Import" the QT.mov just rendered, it plays back flawlessly and smoothly! Therefore, I can't say for certain if the problem I'm having is actually LW's output codecs for QT, or QT Pro's inability to read the codec that LW uses as a QT output. (I know... I know it sounds like the samething!) but this could be the old "...it's the other guys problem to fix not our's." excuse.

Regardless however, I bought LW 7.5 partially because it was advertised to be compatiable with QT, and I expect it to work as advertised. So please get the ball rolling and get it fixed!

BTW, I use the Quicksilver 1 gig Mac as well!

By Manuel Garcia (Magpa1) (200.64.11.26) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 11:29 pm:

hello I'm glad to find some other persons that are worried about this problem problem, i posted this issue like a year i t5{grade LW7.5 will have this problem solved, but it wasn't as you said why we have to do the same work doble, it would be more easily to do it one time, using a mac is a living QT problem, i would like someone in NT give us an answer if they could fixit or not or they would be charging us the fix on the LW8 upgrade, who knows, or keep working on the problem, if they are.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 06:31 pm:

I don't care if they charge for it or not, as long as they fix it soon. The first step is to acknowledge there is a problem.

By ~@~ (Phong) (66.52.180.80) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 08:47 pm:

;) This 'stuff' always reminds me of this thread:

http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/3209.html?991276277

By John A. Johnson (Johnny) (67.73.170.16) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 09:34 pm:

==;) This 'stuff' always reminds me of this thread:

http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/3209.html?991276277==

I've been following THIS thread with interest and decided to take a peek at the thread you referred to..

Man, was that ever scary!

Johnny

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 10:33 pm:

The usual Windows lovers were venting back then, just as they do now. And doing it on the Mac forum.

Why do Windows-ethusiasts always want to vent their opinions on threads about problems affecting Mac users? For example on this thread we see comments like: "convert the clips you want to use and quit whinning about it".

You never get Mac users posting similar flame-throwing comments on the LW Windows forum.

Yes, you can convert Quicktimes to image sequences. However, in the case of image maps these can be very large. Much larger than normal video resolutions. You can also have many of them in the one sequence.

You have to buy an expensive external compositing application... After Effects/Commotion/Combustion/Shake... then you have to spend a lot of time converting each massive Quicktime to an image sequence. Because of their size you might be spending 20 minutes or more on each one. As I said before, it makes no difference even if you're rendering to an image sequence.

So the workarounds are painful, slow and expensive.

By the way, Julian Johnson's explanatory video is no longer on the link provided at the top of the thread.

By John A. Johnson (Johnny) (67.73.160.64) on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 07:56 am:

==You never get Mac users posting similar flame-throwing comments on the LW Windows forum.==

I never understood why windows people hated the mac with such vitriol. You'd think that if they were truly in a superior spot, they wouldn't even BOTHER to think about us..

But this and other LW issues are reasons for concern. I don't feel great about having bought a copy of software advertised to be 'the Mac version' only to find out that it is actually not the functional equivalent of its Windows counterpart. I feel even less great about the aparent inertia on the part of the Vendor to listen to and act upon the complaints/bug reports of Mac users.

on the one hand, I have the icons of great 3D software sitting in my Dock. on the other, my copy of that great software seems to have had it 'nads clipped.

sigh.

sixteen hundred smackers!


J

By jan jamoy (Hon) (172.152.171.112) on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 07:09 am:

My god, what kind of work are people actually doing, using LW on Mac platform? This is not about PCs versus Macs, or shattered loves - vis http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/3209.html?991276277 above - this is about total lack of customer care on part of dam' NewTek. Is there any way to get some response?

Nuuuuuuuuutek where are uuuuuuuuu??!!

By jan jamoy (Hon) (212.159.21.225) on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 06:02 pm:

Those of you who are working in video production and are frustrated with LW-Mac-QT issues should look here: http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2002/06_jun/features/cw_rtx100.htm