By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 03:41 pm:| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 03:41 pm: |
I am about to embark on a new purchase. Which would you recommend?
The Dual G4 533 or G4 733 ??
Thanks, Ken
| By ChrisOSX (Chrisosx) (209.206.170.170) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 05:00 pm: |
How about if you buy the Dual G4 533 for yourself and you buy me the G4 733? And can you get me a superdive while you are at it?
Thanks!
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 05:13 pm: |
Thanks Chris, you are alot of help.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 10:56 pm: |
I have heard rumours that the dual 733s are coming. I'm sure you would kick your own butt if you bought a single 733 only a month or two before the duals arrive. Or you could simply do what I will soon do and purchase an $1000 Athlon 1.3 and it will outperform both of them. (as sad as that is)
cheers.
ian
| By shawn (24.20.51.213) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 11:04 pm: |
I would wait just a little longer because duel 733
are just around the corner. A month and a half at
the most, Mac world new york. If you by right now
you will be paying to much and kicking your self
a month down the road when you could have had to g4 733's for the price of one. If you want a 533 go for it but still waite because they will be discounted when the new speed bumps arive by mac world new york. If you have saved the money and waited this long then what you are using can last
one more month unless you need it for a job and present hardware will not do the job. I would waite. I have a duel 500 I bought last fall, waited
for the radion to ship and got the same system people who bought earlier in the summer with a better video card for the same price. If you can waite a little longer you will get better hardware for your money.
shawn ogle
| By ChrisOSX (Chrisosx) (209.206.170.170) on Sunday, June 03, 2001 - 11:08 pm: |
Hey, where's your sense of humor Ken Macleod?!
I'm no expert, but I'd say if you are planning on running OS X, go with the dual processor configuration. If you plan on staying with OS 9.x until the next time you buy a new system, go with the 733.
I'm sure if you check www.xlr8yourmac.com and did a search on 533 MP vs 733 you'd get some interesting feedback. In fact here's one now...
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4ZONE/G4_733mhz_review/apple_G4_733_tests.html
There may be others, I didn't look to hard.
| By Wes Chilton (165.121.217.28) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 02:44 pm: |
I myself am waiting for the dual 800-plus systems to come out, perhaps this Fall. I currently have a G4/500 with 1.5GB of RAM that is very nice for just about all my purposes (i.e. Photoshop, GoLive, Flash, Quark XPress & FinalCut Pro) Only Lightwave seems to suffer on this machine.
I played around with my friend's G4/733, and while the Finder seemed just the very slightest bit snappier, in all the aforementioned applications there was no noticeable difference. Maybe on paper it's a lot faster but I don't really see it. Saving a second here and there isn't worth my spending another $3,500 to replace a machine that was top-of-the-line less than 8 months ago!
I'm waiting for dual G4/800MHz or dual G4/1GHz machines to come out with a ***mature*** version of Mac OS X. Then we'll all be singing "Speed Racer" 
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 03:07 pm: |
Thanks Chris!!! Now that is help.
| By Izzy Sane (216.244.24.84) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:31 am: |
Everybody here knows that ALL macs are now shipping with OSX installed. So start planning for the future, not the past. Watch for these updates that Newtek is posting for us. They're doing a great job of supporting us Mac users and we should congradulate them.
OSX takes advantage of the dual processor architecture, so I would run nothing but a dual processor. And as we have seen, rumors have it that the big machines will get thier second processor added this summer. Hold off purchasing until MACworld EXPO.
Motorola has announced a boost in production, so more chips are now available.
It will be worth the wait, Ken
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:51 am: |
Just going to play devils advocate. Don't get mad at me.
Dual G4/733 (aprox.) $2999
Dual Athlon 1.4ghz - $1400
ummm.
Just something to consider.
Ian
PS> the dual Athlon boards are due out this month.
| By ChrisOSX (Chrisosx) (64.91.48.207) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 11:04 am: |
What Ian talking about PCs again? And after all that pounding of the chest on how much he likes Mac, yet at every turn he's talking about PC this and PC that...
I'm beginning to wonder why you spend time in this forum? Isn't there a LW for PC forum somewhere you can beat your chest in?
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 11:45 am: |
Ha,
Why you ask, oh, Five minutes ago watched a 5 hour render disappear in a puff of 'type3 error'. for the fourth time in a row
Why? Cause I'm fed up to my eyeballs. So, is it just me? Chris, someday you will realize that the Mac is just a tool. If you look at it from that perspective does it really make any sense to spend 3 times as much money on a tool that frankly doesn't cut it.
And I do love the Mac, in fact I have been using macs full time since 1988. Generally I feel they are far ahead of windows in almost every respect.
I'm not suggesting PCs out of distain for the Mac, it's only because after two years of trying to use LW on the mac professionally I've finally realized that simple truth, that the Mac is just a hunk of plastic and metal, and that I wasn't willing to admit it's shortcomings due to some mac-love thing. I for one still go to the mac store and lovingly stroke the new ibook, and I most likely will purchase a new dual733, 'cause for premier you never can have too much power.
I will continue to "pound my chest" since I honestly feel that my postion (working in dual platform multimedia development for the past 8 years) puts me in a somewhat knowledgable position to make these comments about LW for the Mac.
I'm not spouting of at the mouth like a disgruntled teen, no, I'm a professional who really feels cheated by the $4000 software that brings down my G4 on a regular basis.
If you at all curious about what I am talking about, try to use LW on your mac every day, and start demanding that it finish a job. pretend you have a client that doesn't want to hear... "gee I've tried to render you print image four days in a row. I guess it's just LW for the mac. teee heee." I wonder if that client would call you for the next job.
There are a lot of different kinds of users on this board, some people are pros some people do it for fun. Perhaps my mistake is assuming that everyone will demand the same from LW as I do, ore even that everyone will expect to be able to use LW as they would Photoshop.
If someone asks for opinions about what they should do, I will respond with my opinion, and honestly I believe it's a very well informed one at that.
Ken, if you wish to have information regarding LW and my experiences with it on my G4, then by all means email me. Otherwise I'll shut up.
Actually I'm going to stop ranting now.
ian
| By ChrisOSX (Chrisosx) (64.91.48.207) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 07:03 pm: |
It sure sounds like your problem is with LW when you explain it thus, but your comment in this thread about cost raises the eyebrow because cost has nothing to do with quality. I've used PCs for the past 10 years and a Mac for the past 1. My OS X Mac has crashed twice since I upgraded to OS X (2 crashes in 3 months!) and both crashes where due to the preview release of IE. My PC on the other hand has crashed on average every other day, sometimes multiple times in a single day--and I use it about 25% as much as my Mac!
So, telling me or anyone else to get a $1500 machine because it's half the price makes no sense whatsoever coming from a professed Mac fan. I mean, people who own Macs KNOW!
Could go on and on here, and likely no one else is reading the thread or even cares but I just get a bit sick of your constant "Get a PC instead" comments on almost every thread I see you posting to. Say it once, mean it the first time, and let it be!
| By Mat (Pixy) (193.252.111.220) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 07:16 pm: |
Chris,
Ian is talking about LW running on mac in professional use. This is not the same thing than other apps on this platform!
Bravo Ian.
Mat
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 09:06 pm: |
ChrisOSX
Ok, point taken.
Though even though I outlined it, I don't think you actually get it.
Yes, the mac is a better platform generally compared to Windows. But if I have a job to do then I have to accept what is available to get the job done. Perhaps this is the reason there are (that I know of) no special effects houses running 200 G4s and LW. But you know, they do OK. I never heard Foundation missing an episode deadline for Voyager because they were not using macs, but NT boxes!
It's just a machine. I know I can make a Windows renderfarm work, thousands do it every day. Besides, I'm obviously not getting the usual Mac stability that prompted me to spend so much money on Macs in the first place. Why should I keep LW on the mac? Because of it's superior speed over windows like photoshop? Because of it's incredible stability? No, LW on the Mac seems no different for stability, interface or anything else that makes the mac so valuable a tool for me normally.
Your sick of reading my rants? I suppose you are right. I am kinda like that guy in the diner, yelling at everyone "don't eat the chili! I puked for a whole day last time I had it!"
I apologize for that.
No more PC rants. Though I will answer direct questions regarding the difference between the platforms (from my perspective, cause lets face it, that's all I got)
Enjoy your Mac.
ian
| By Magic (Zarathustra) (65.1.154.122) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:28 pm: |
Okay, time to level the playing field.
I've been a PROFESSIONAL (sorry Ian, you're not the only one around here) for almost 10 years. I've used macs & pcs during that time, prefering mac even in the dark days of Amelio at the helm of Apple. I've yearned for multitasking, pre-emptive memory etc. for some time.
OSX is buggy and imperfect, but a huge step in the right direction. NT and now 2000 are FAR from ideal either.
I've always preferred the performance of my adobe products on a mac. Now I'll admit LW 5 was pretty rough to take but 6.5b rocks for me. No render problems. No mystery quirks. Happy & solid. Screamernet? No problem.
Now, is a pc cheaper? Yes, but....
If you are a professional, that's a lot of new software to buy.
Want a "professional" graphics card (or 2)?
Want fast drives?
Want other options that are mac standards?
Blah blah. I'm no better than Ian at this point ranting on and on.
I just wanted all of you mac users who might feel intimidated by a "professional" to know that your macs are perfectly good machines and can be used "professionally".
Thanks for reading ALL this.
| By David Hoke (199.106.219.154) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:40 pm: |
Here we go again:
Wow, that LightWave is some software. After pulling that 2500.00 out of your bleeding asses, don't forget to grab that extra 1400.00 for the computer to run it on. That's like buying a real expensive lawnmower to cut your grass, but there is this weird patch of grass that keeps growing on your roof. Now you have to go buy this other stupid cutting machine that's good for nothing but the patch of grass on your roof. This is where these people screw everybody. You better go buy the roofgrasspatch cutter, because you never know when the grass is going to come up again. This scenario kind of puts me in mind of some band-aid used for covering up herpe sores. And, we all know what the sore is. Come on everybody, don't even bring up that PC stuff anymore. Again, 2500.00 should buy 2500.00 worth of software!
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:52 pm: |
God,
you guys are incredible.
All I have asserted is that building a PC render farm makes sense to me. I also said that it is only for LW I wouldn't trade my Mac with Photoshop, Illustrator, Director for anything! Oh, I didn't mention Audio, Macs Kick major A for Pro audio software!
You guys must think I'm happy about this! I'd love to buy a fleet of G4s, but I just can't afford it yet.
I'm going to shut up now and just go about my business, 'cause I'm just making things worse.
ian
| By david_hoke (199.106.219.154) on Tuesday, June 05, 2001 - 10:54 pm: |
Ian:
If you would just go to the "LW-PC" section of the forums, you could rant and rave about your PC all day and everyone will get that glassed over, blank Bill Gates stare. The next thing you know you are all hopping some space ship behind a comet. Another thing, how are you going to find the time to buy your PC machine if all you are doing is saying bad things about the Mac. You must spend nearly every waking moment trying to kill the Mac. Just go away, so we can get down to making Newtek accountable for any problems they have caused. Which are aparently very few on OS X.
Dave
| By Steff (195.46.246.107) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 12:48 am: |
Better be rich to be in the Mac field.... but so what, so much better than being poor.
(I know cause I was still poor five years ago....)
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 09:25 am: |
David,
it's always a good idea to actually read peoples posts before you comment on them, thereby avoiding the possibility of making a total fool of yourself.
regards
ian
| By shawn (24.20.51.213) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 03:04 pm: |
Ian,
The original post stated nothing about pc, only
mac. Please keep that in mind when piping up. No
render farm mentioned, no witch is cheaper, just witch mac to buy. Your comments were not needed or
by many peoples response to you, wanted. I would have to say your duel athlon sounds great but I bet
your price is not a pro set up so dont give a base
model when comparing a top of the line mac with super drive dvd. I have both and use the mac more
but some work requires both setups. This is a Mac
board go away if you can't play nice. Maybe I should go into the pc board and start saying how great osX is compared to pc's. See what kind of
flame thrower they set on my butt. You get the point, we gather here to be away from the pc crap.
Any mac owner knows their system cost more remember
they had to pay for it.
shawn ogle
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 06:51 pm: |
Shawn,
agian please read the post.
I specified (in case you don't know the prices of machines) A top line PC and an entry level Mac.
Since Macs are much pricier (as all mac users know) I personally would most likely populate my render farm with either 466s or 533s. The PC I was mentioning, with the price was actually the fastest Athlon money could buy with a full bore nVidia2 (1.7Gtexlels)
FYI - there are some people who are actually interested in the issues and problems people face with the mac. It seems that you are the one with the serious platform issue here.
I am a mac user and have just as much right to post on this board as any other Mac user, even one obviously as insecure as yourself. Sorry, but you really are grasping at straws here.
also I don't gather here 'to get away from the pc crap.' since in case you haven't noticed that 'pc crap' as you so eloquently put it represents 90% of the pro 3D community. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! If you would like to alienate every PC user that frequents this board, go for it.. your off to a great start.
Personally I'm here to share info, true, sometimes I have some serious gripes with my LW problems but to take it personally as you have done is just plain silly.
I welcome any reasonable input or information, but 'go away' is just plain childish. I suggest you try to elevate yourself above such name calling and pettiness.
again, regards.
ian
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 06:53 pm: |
One more thing,
How many macs do you have shawn? because I own 6. I know all about buying macs.
ian
| By Steff (195.46.251.202) on Wednesday, June 06, 2001 - 11:38 pm: |
Ian, you really own 6 G4's ??? wooooohoooo !!!! That's already a farm ! Cool ! I was going to say lucky guy but I'd rather say Hard Worker.....
I can just afford one, but now I understand why you are so pissed off sometimes..... cause if I invested so much money, I would too.....
| By shawn (24.20.51.213) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 12:09 am: |
Ian read the first post you are not answering the post only adding your thoughts on what he should buy even though he or she didn't ask your opinion on pc price. I have read you many times and you are antaganistic and got to get the last word Im right
no matter what, type of guy, So be it, you are right for (you) not for me and yes you have every right to post here but I personaly wish you would answer the question witch would you buy a duel 533 or a 733? If neather you didnt need to post here maybe somewhere else but not here. I own one mac
for I mostly due print work Have had up to three
at one time for a job but sold them off for I really only can use one at a time. If you got six you got to many collecting dust or a studio with many people. YOU ARE wrong on the price I can get a
base model mac for less than 1700.00 and the 2999.oo dollar one is the top of the line with super drive witch runs 900.00 retail bringing your
athlon up to 2300.oo MAC FORUM WE LOVE ARE MACS IF
YOU LIKE PC'S THEY HAVE A FORUM FOR YOU.(YES I'M YELLING)If you want to add to the forum about macs
do so if not go tell the pc guys what great choices
they made. I love this you need to post some of your work in the gallery I will if you will I want to see some of your pro work you six mac pc loving
maniac. I have to say you are more fun than most
guys who love their kmart blue light specials. Oooh
now Im getting nasty. Can't waite to see your work
post a site or something to the gallery.
Just take it with a grain of salt
your way to touchy for a troll (lol)
shawn ogle
| By shawn (24.20.51.213) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 12:27 am: |
Ian,
I really do want see your work not to critize it
not into that at all. Just like to put a face with
a style. The end off the last post was poking fun if you didnt read it that way oh well I guess I need to work on my sence of humor. I am in a good
mood going camping this weekend and your tone to
my post just struck me as my blanks bigger than yours. Kinda funny so I desided to reply in kind.
I personly would get a ultra or geforce3 if I was
going to blow the money on dual athlon though.
shawn ogle
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 10:39 am: |
Sorry Shawn. I'm a Canadian. therefore I say canadian dollars.. $2300 = $1700 USD. Sorry for the confusion.
I posted a rendering contest entry in the gallery a bit back. the interior of a room?
You are correct. I was offering an alternative to the purchase of another Mac. Not answering the question posted by Ken.
Ken, my apologies for having a schoolyard brawl in your thread. Check out:
http://www.blanos.com
you will find that the dual/533 outperforms the 733 with the raytrace test. (I didn't check the others)
Again, I do advise caution, the dual 733s should really kick some hienie.
Chris, again I'll advise you to calm down regarding platform love. This is LW we are talking about,and from a lot people's perspectives, not just mine, it's all about production.
I needed more rendering power. Frankly I would have had to wait another year to upgrade to a new mac, but I bought the Athlon yesterday. It remains to be seen how it will fair.
There are also other concerns. I need to compile Director projects. My aging P200 was a nightmare to work with. I needed to upgrade anyway. So I figured what the hey.
Besides maybe there are others who are considering doing what I'm doing, and if I fall flat on my face and come crawling back to my G4 begging for forgivness, don't you think that would be instructive?
ian
| By shawn (24.20.51.213) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 03:00 pm: |
Ian,
No problem man Didnt know you were in canada.
Things are alot more expensive out of the states.
I read some of your posts and you seem to be having
a hell of a time with 6.5b. I would move to a pc if
it ment getting the job done or not. Thanks for the
reply hope everything works for you.
later
shawn ogle
| By Richard Purvis (Rpurvis) (206.0.74.6) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 03:35 pm: |
I've been using Macs for over 10 years. I love Macs; have always hated PCs. I've been using Photoshop/Illustrator/Quark/Framemaker, and a whole host of other applications on the Mac with hardly any significant problems. When I decided to enter the 3D Animation market, I purchased LightWave. To make a long story short: among other things, my hub doesn't work. It's not glitchy, or problematic - it simply doesn't work as advertised. This is not a bug. This is badly optimized software for the OS platform. It took me a long time to come to a very difficult decision: my next computer would be a Windows machine, and I would convert my license from Mac to Windows.
Aside from being deeply saddened at having to arrive at this conclusion, let's take a look at the costs:
LightWave is $2,500.00. Supposed to work on the Mac, but doesn't.
I decide to purchase a Windows machine at appx. $1,500 (so I can actually do something productive).
And on top of that it costs $99.00 to convert the license.
So right now, I'm pissed. I want to support the Mac and the future development of Mac applications. Hopefully, LW for Windows will work. If not, someone should call a lawyer, or at the very least be reimbursed for for the original purchase price so I can buy something that does work.
Really, though - $99.00 so some shmo can toss a CD and Dongle into an envelope and mail it. That's what I call balls.
| By david lubell (Dlubell) (12.96.176.34) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 04:20 pm: |
hello
i have a g4 dp 500 and have to say the processing of movies ,final render stills,etc.is quite impressive terms of speed of renders as opposed to a single processor..aside from the bugs in lw i find that im satisfied for now with the peppiness of the programs on my system ..coming from a 250mz g3 ..as far as r. purvis's comments about lw 'Supposed to work on the Mac, but doesn't. '..it works fine if you remember to save as you go..in anticipation of the likely crash..
good luck
dl
http://dlubellanimation.50megs.com/
| By Richard Purvis (Rpurvis) (206.0.74.6) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 04:50 pm: |
As I stated - The Hub doesn't even function. Forget about crashing if and when I can ever get around to final rendering a scene. And also, I can't import Plugins. The system simply doesn't recognize them. I've spent more time trouble-shooting LW Mac than producing; I'm reinstalled the software, reconfigured my harddrive, etc., etc. And, frankly, any beefy app that requires constant adjustments to extensions and memory, etc. isn't buggy - it's bad.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 06:28 pm: |
well, I'm officially, not longer a Mac LW user. I have traded in my dongle to work on an Athlon 1.2 that I built yesterday. I just booted up LW 6.5b and did some test renders. wow! I'm sure it wouldn't be impressive if I had a DP533, but I have a plain jane G4/400 and I must say the difference is stunning. I also put a full bore nVidia2/32 and the OGL is also amazing!
Aside from the hell I had getting windows running (which I expected) I'm amazed.
Besides, the tower I bought is really big and impressive! It should allow me to charge another 10% from my clients just due to the intimidation factor.
[that's a joke btw]
cheers all
ian
| By dfc (165.247.26.156) on Thursday, June 07, 2001 - 11:05 pm: |
Good luck ian,
keep an eye on the temp of that athlon...they run way hot. Let us know how long it runs before it blows up. (thats a joke too :-)
Just remember the windows motto...force quitting in Task manager..is NOT a crash.
Seriously...keep up us posted on how things go.
dfc
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Friday, June 08, 2001 - 09:51 am: |
dfc ,
rofl.
seriously, that was funny. It's been two days and I have already 'task managered' lots of little things. Not LW yet... but...
[he he]
I must say win2000 is much more mac like then win98, still feels clunky to me. Must keep in mind... I'm doing this for the render speed.
sigh.
ian
| By dfc (165.247.45.134) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 01:31 am: |
ian,
I like win 2k too..much better than any DOS based windows.
Just like to say..I run a corp..network. As you know..thing aren't going to well these days on Wall Street. Just to let you know..as the cost cutters come in..and remove light bulbs to save money...a room full of Athlons= a room full of HEAT. A room full of heat = a need for serious air conditioning to keep those 3 finger salutes from happeing. A room full of A/C = BIG BUCKS if you have a lot of machines.
Add to that ..the fact that these machines eat wattage..and you've got yourself quite a bill at the end of the month.
Our 8 machine floor..costs 50 grand a year in electricity..and a/c. But..thats counting 6 printers..a fiberoptic raid array..a LVD raid file server..22 inch monitors..2 NTSC monitors..and a rack full of audio gear...and 3 decks.
Thats double what the mac floor costs..which has triple the printers...and double the workstations.
The mac room is 78 degrees..which is warm..but the machines..function just fine. Anything over about 75 degrees..and the Windows machines start fraggin. Each additionl degree of cooling cost exponentially...its sort of like LW and texture maps.
The overhead costs..has more to do with A/C and electric bills than anything when you talking about a room full of PC's.
Anyway..I've seen a few athlons go up in smoke..I kidd you not! If you can get some sort of metering device..keep an eye on it. You might just be surprised..at the temp reading those things run at.
All those fans..in that nice big case..blow all that hot air..into the room they are in. Once you add 8 of them..it gets..WARM!
Youll need either intercooled cases or..a heavy duty A/C to cool them down. (ie..the room)
I'm NOT kidding!
[my favorite DOS Trick]
In MS Dos..open the config sys file..and type
Install=••••.
Everytime the computer starts up it say:
Starting MS DOS
Cant find "••••"
:-)
dcornutt
| By Francesco (62.11.3.210) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 09:31 am: |
I think that comparing Macs and "no brand" Pcs is wrong. I know that an athlon Pc based costs less than a G4 733... but I'm sure that an IBM P4 Intellistation costs a "bit" more than 1000 $.
Apple (as IBM, HP and Compaq do) offers support to their clients that cannot be offered by Pc clones producer.
| By Scot (207.44.242.139) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 11:09 am: |
What's all this talk about cost? A "professional" that can't afford a single Macintosh? You should charge more money, or spend more time trying to get a job and less time posting on this forum.
I'm a professional and I own both platforms. I don't see how you can BE a professional and not have both platforms.
Use whatever works for you. I produce everything on the Mac in Lightwave and other applications like After Effects 5 Production Bundle, Final Cut Pro, Flash 5, Livemotion, Director and the like. I prefer the Mac experience over the Windows experience. I render on ALL of my machines.
I've been using OS X since March. It will be an amazing OS when it's finished. Lightwave 6.5b works great on it, though it renders slower than OS 9 (what's up with that?) But the OpenGL in OS X rocks! It's so much faster than OS 9 it isn't funny.
Dual G4 (dual 533 is faster than single 733) with a GeForce 3 and OS X is a modeling and animating platform that can't be beat in my opinion.
| By Maturana (200.255.108.186) on Saturday, June 09, 2001 - 03:24 pm: |
Men, I think that kind of discussion will never end (I mean, have a conclusion).
Are there some one that used both plataforms (for one or two years almost)?
What these people think abou their choices (are they happy) ?
Their choice cost how much for one year?
| By Chuck Baker (Cbaker) (207.235.86.2) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 10:25 am: |
Richard, the $99 cross-platform fee is forgiven in any number of instances, the one most common being that the platform transfer is done at the same time as an upgrade. We do normally charge it when the transfer is done as a separate transaction, and there is certainly more to what goes on than someone dropping a CD and dongle into a mailer. In your case, I've directed our Customer Services manager to refund the $99 fee for you.
The LightWave product team is making special efforts to contact Mac LW users experiencing difficulties, so that we can provide any information and support that they may need to clear up issues so they may achieve the stable and dependable operation of the product that other users are reporting, and so that we can pin down any issues that we need to address in development in order to provide that stability to those users.
| By brad gordon (162.24.9.253) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 12:02 pm: |
I don't own a Mac, but I don't see anything wrong with it. They may not run LW as well as the PC, but they sure are pretty (sort of like my first wife--she didn't work either, but man was she pretty!).
| By Richard Purvis (Rpurvis) (206.0.74.6) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 01:15 pm: |
Chuck:
My sincerest thanks for the refund. I'm certain I came off more pissy than was warranted, but my level of frustration was at an all time high. Never in all my years of MacWork have I experienced anything as uncooperative as LW. It took over a month after receiving the product just to get it to recognize the license key. After I tried every conceivable trick and suggestion, I was faced with reformatting my hard disk which cost me over a gig of irreplacable data.
LightWave has thusfar been a disapointment . Let's hope all will be resolved with my new system.
Richard
| By Chuck Baker (Cbaker) (207.235.86.2) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 02:18 pm: |
Richard, you are welcome, and please rest assured that we are dedicated to making a great product that works with ease and high productivity on all our supported platforms. Any information you would be willing to provide that would help us to prevent future such frustrations for Mac users, I hope you will pass along to us. Feel free to email me, chuck_baker@newtek.com, or Project Manager Art Howe at ahowe@newtek.com.
| By Karen Shaheen (Kshaheen) (207.235.86.2) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 02:56 pm: |
Hi Richard,
Just wanted to confirm we have processed the refund and you should be receiving an invoice in the mail shortly.
Thanks,
Karen
| By Steff (195.46.246.212) on Tuesday, June 12, 2001 - 11:44 pm: |
Brad, I love your Humor, 'cause my first wife was also like that, didnt make a dime, but hell pretty...... he he eh
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 07:09 am: |
Hi, I started this thread and all I have to say is "Don't buy a Daul 533!!" I did and sold it.
NewTek says it was my 533 that was the problem with renders and textures. I think it is a little bit Mac and and a little bit more of NewTek.
| By Alex (207.44.242.139) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:18 am: |
Got any more specifics than that? I have a dual G4 500 and Lightwave runs perfectly on it.
| By Chuck Baker (Cbaker) (207.235.86.2) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 10:02 am: |
Before anyone else gives up on dual machines, please consider forwarding any scenes that you are having difficulty with to our Tech staff. We are using a dual G4 450 and will work directly with R & D on any issues encountered.
It is a fact that LW will take significantly more RAM to render on a dual machine than on a single machine - all the tex maps have to be duplicated and so does the pipeline. The trade-off is additional RAM resources for additional speed. Under OSX the Virtual memory can take up the load when literal RAM is exceeded, provided you've got the HD space available. Under 9.x VMem is more limited and some scenes with high RAM requirements are going to hit the wall, and particularly on a dual machine when scene materials and pipeline must be duplicated.
All that said, we certainly do want to make every effort to uncover any issues where we need to correct the way the code is handling issues if there are errors, or optimize handling to get the user most out of the resources they have.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 10:32 am: |
Wait a minute,
Am I to understand that after all this, Ken actually sold his Mac and is transfering his licence to a windows version?
ken?
ian
| By Arnie (65.160.182.143) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 11:22 am: |
Wait Chuck, the textures aren't duplicated for each process. That would be really bad. Proceses wait for each other if they try to change textures in mid-stream, but the texture RAM requirements don't double (as of at least 6.5).
Lots of other stuff doubles though. The more that doubles, the better the CPU utilization. Of course there is processor overhead as well as RAM overhead associated with the duplication necessary for multi-threaded renders, and balancing all these factors is something of a black art. I can explain the details to anyone with a Bachelors in Computer Science in less that 3 semesters.
| By Chuck Baker (Cbaker) (207.235.86.2) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 12:39 pm: |
Apologies Arnie, I read too much into a post of your from the other day from the Dual 533 and Missing Textures thread! 'Fraid I also mentioned this idea on another thread here a couple minutes ago....
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 02:03 pm: |
Let me say, I want to thank everyone at NewTek for all their help. I can't say enough for all their concern and support. Yes, I switched from Mac to PC. I had been thinking about switching platforms for a while. It wasn't an easy decision. Once again NewTek, you have a great product.
| By Leslie Jon-Pierre Lloyd (Nicodemus) (209.194.114.50) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 02:17 pm: |
So ken,
Did you switch from MAC to PC or what.
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 02:20 pm: |
Let me also say, The Dual 533 I owned had problems, probably hardware problems.It doesn’t mean and I am NOT saying that all 533 machines will have the same problem. This was only my experience.
| By Alex (207.44.242.137) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 02:30 pm: |
Does Lightwave run perfectly on PCs? Just curious. If I go to the PC, will I never have any problems?
This issue with dual processors, does it exist on the PC?
Thanks
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:54 pm: |
Ken,
I also did the dirty deed (so to speak)
I switched last week. I can't BELIEVE the difference. I got an Athlon 1.2Ghz and an Nvidea32MB card. From my perception is feels like Modeller runs at least 4 times faster. I have been working on an animation for a client and everything I was used to on my G4 has changed. It is sooo much faster I am just stunned. I switched primarily for plug-in support and cheaper rendering farm options but OH MY GOD! The same scene which took several hours to render just finished in (get this) 29 minutes!
I bought windows 2K and LW hasn't crashed yet. (knock on wood)
I took me months to finally make this decision, but I'm glad I did.
i.e. Ken, you ain't the only bloke with the same idea.
ian
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Wednesday, June 13, 2001 - 09:59 pm: |
Hey Ian, How did you get your Mac scene files to read on the PC?
Also, when you have a LW object on the PC do you name it for example....
front door.lwo
or
front_door.lwo
Thanks,
Yea, letting go of the Mac was very hard.
| By Keep Windows (207.44.242.137) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 10:37 am: |
Wow Ian. A 1.2 Ghz Athlon is 4-6 times faster than the Mac? Looking at Chris' Lightwave Benchmarks site, you must either have a very special Athlon PC or the slowest Mac on the planet.
On Chris' Lightwave Benchmarks, there are five 1.2 Ghz Athlons that rendered the Raytrace benchmark in 243 - 260 seconds. There are two different dual 533 Mhz G4s that did the same scene in 233 seconds in OS 9. The fastest time on this site is from a quad 733 Mhz Pentium III Xeon with a 116 second time. The fastest Pentium III time was from several dual 1 Ghz Pentium IIIs that did the scene in about 151-154 seconds.
The same scene that took "several hours" to render on the Mac took 29 minutes on the Athlon? Is this a Mac LC?
And Windows 2000 is so stable that there wouldn't be ANY posts on the LW PC forum about Win 2K crashing with LW, would there?
Here are some posts from the PC forum:
"Okay, so I go to http://www.blanos.com/benchmark/ and see that all the faaastest render machines are PIII dual CPU computers (for the raytrace scene).
So I get all my computers set up on my network, even working with Stealthnet and I set up a Project using ratrace.lws and it takes fricking 11 minutes!!
Maybe someone can tell me what's the deal?
This is kinda disappointing. 6.5b 1gig of memory, raid HDs.
What am I doing wrong?"
>>>>>>>>>
Well....
I don't know if it's just me, but I have some problems with skytracer:
1. the envelope button for dissolve is always disabled
2. the "no antialiasing" switch is also always disabled
3. the "Render 1/2 Res" switch is, guess what, always disabled
I guess that's the case for everyone else, but I'd like to know if
anyone knows why this is happening....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Have anybody noticed the slowdown when lw 6.5b gets to rendering transparent polygons?
I did when I worked on architectural project and had a lots of transparent planes like glass and semi-transparent leaves on 3d trees.
That was not like that in previous versions.
I asked the same thing, my render sat there rendering transparent polys for longer then it did anything else (about 10 hours!) Arnie says that it did render transparent polygons the same way in 6.5, just that the user wasn't informed of it via feedback. [shrug]
ian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here's several posts about Modeler freezing in Win2K:
Don't ask me why...but I install and reinstall Lightwave, and have formatted, but only when I use the modeler, will the program freeze after a short while, if I move fast enough I may be able to edit a bit, but once it freezes theres nothing I can do, I have to reboot.
Hi,
I had a similar problem for a while on my system which is quite similar.
After a period of cursing various applications for hanging the system it became apparant that the problem was not application specific (I just tended to use the apps more often and hence it always seemed to crash when running them).
In my case the system just froze solid (no time to just do a little editting) and no caps lock response. This being the case my problem may have been differnet to yours.
With quite a bit of experimentation and consulting my manuals a lot I found that there were a number of settings in my Bios that could be set to trade performance for stability. Changing several of these seems to have prevented the random freezing, and hasn't noticably hit performance. It's also worth making sure you have the latest drivers and updates.
I was running into this. I have an Athlom 1.33/ MSI KT266/ Geforce 2 GTS 64 system running W2K.
Layout and Modeler were crashing randomly and I'm running SP2. I dumped my configs, reinstalled the sentinel drivers, and (which I think did the trick) disabled the HUB.
I tried running the system at CAS 2.5, but didn't help. The system is solid and fast. Haven't had it crash since I disabled the HUB.
I might agree with flaky NVidia drivers. I have noticed that viewport refresh does some bizarre things on occation inside Modeler, say when I maximize LW from the Task Bar. My Vertibevel designer window doesn't properly refresh when I open it either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am runing windows 2000 pro in a dual P3 system. When i start an anymation render and go to the Task Manager, I see only 50% of the system busy. This means LW is only using one CPU. How can i turn the second on?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I recently upgraded my system from a nice smooth running 5.6 to a very impressive but apparently less stable 6.5. I am running win 98 second ed on a Dell 400 mhz PII with 128MB ram and a 16mb nvidia stb card. The program itself runs nicely unitl I go to render a scene in .avi or any other format and then it crashes. It can however render individual frames. It does so by dividing the frame in two sections instead of 4 like 5.6 did.The last attempt yielded one entire frame complete before it crashed. Any suggestions?
My error message verbatim is:
LIGHTWAV caused an invalid page fault in
module QUICKTIMEAUTHORING.QTX at 0197:66e595af.
Registers:
EAX=0ae2fa78 CS=0197 EIP=66e595af EFLGS=00010212
EBX=05570f10 SS=019f ESP=00aaf408 EBP=00aaf558
ECX=00aaf47c DS=019f ESI=0ae1ae06 FS=63d7
EDX=00000000 ES=019f EDI=0ae1ab48 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
8b 0a 66 8b 90 a8 00 00 00 8b 40 68 51 52 53 57
Stack dump:
00aaf47c 00aaf46c 00000000 00000000 00aaf514 80008002 00aaf504 00000001 000001f0 00000000 001e0000 00002e26 00009f12 00000000 00000000 00ae00ea
Thanks Mitchell Loftin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Any problems to report on the dual monitors?
I heard this one.....
Just an FYI, with Windows 2000 if you put your Lightwave panels on your
second monitor, none of the "drop down" menus will work over there. I know
of others with that problem as well. But with Windows 98 that is not a
problem.
Thanks,
Ken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Im trying to install LW 5.5 in Win2000 Pro but I cant seem to get it to see the dongle? Does anyone know how to do this? I remember in NT4 you had to manually initialize it, but how do you do this in 2000?
Have you made sure you have set your BIOS Serial Port setting to EPP?
>>>>>>>>>>>
i have a windows me operating system and i cant seem to make lightwave 6 to work properly.
the refresh rate sucks
the layout selects me one frame and sticks with it i cant move to front side or other positions and i cant make objects in modeler.
its like a very nice crippled basterd.
if any one knows whats wrong please tell me.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:24 pm: |
keep windows
what a waste of space.
take a look at the benchmark for a G4/400, oh, look, it is 4 times slower then an Athlon 1.2!
I also clearly stated that it FELT faster. There is no benchmarking the feeling of using a product. LW on the Athlon runs smoother. There is little doubt in my mind now. All operations in Modeller happen in REAL TIME no stuttering nor delays. I can move points on a complex model in realtime!
Yes I could have invested in a new Mac, but I couldn't considering a dual533 costs $3749 canadian where the Athlon (complete) cost me $1600 (that is with a Yamaha 16speed burner)
Fact is I felt that LW on the Mac was NOWHERE near the stability I am used to with my other Mac Apps, and No I'm not a neophyte with Windows, I know it's not perfect. These points made my decision:
- More than half the price for a machine of equal rendering power.
- Moving to windows allows the use of hundreds of new plugins.
- Purchasing rendering nodes is 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the Mac equivilant.
- Creating a stand alone LW station allowing me to use my Mac 24/7.
I couldn't argue with the facts.
Your post was just plain silly, we are all capable of reading the LW PC section, and I certainly wasn't denying that Windows has as many problems as the Mac. But you must admit that in most cases, like with Photoshop there is a decided advantage to use the Mac version, where with LW that advantage isn't there, so why the heck should I keep banging my head against the wall. I love the mac as much as the next guy, the difference it appears, is that I dont let that love blind me when it comes to getting my work done.
regards
ian
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:29 pm: |
Ken,
I have been in the habit of naming my files without spaces and adding the .lwo and .lws at the end. I do this for all my files (photoshop, illustrator, etc) since I work with both platforms. Therefore I didn't experience any problems other than LWs bizaar file structure thing. For example: my mac drive was named "bongo" and when the files open in LW on the PC it tells me it can't find "bongo:files:thing.lwo"
so be prepared to find and load all of the objects in a scene. It helps if you already were in the habit of moving your bitmaps into the same folder as the objects. Since if you use reflection maps or others in the LW/images folder you will have to burrow there repeatedly.
good luck
ian
| By Keep Windows (207.44.242.137) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 12:41 pm: |
ian,
My post was not silly. Making posts on a Mac tech support forum about how the new PC you have is so wonderful is what is silly.
I'm not going to say that your decision wasn't right for you. My point was that there are problems on both platforms. Ken had a problem with his dual G4 and returned it and got a PC, like he isn't going to have problems with the PC. When he DOES have problems with the PC, what will he buy then?
For me, the cost of the computer is irrelevant. I can afford a Mac and have more than one. I can afford a PC and have more than one of those too. I have found my productivity to be much higher on the Mac platform. You can't put a price on this. Windows is garbage, in my opinion, but I have to use it. The X86 platform in itself offers wonderful things like having to go into the BIOS to set the priority of your CD-ROM drive just so you can boot from the CD. I could give you a list of reasons why my Windows PCs are a bigger pain in the butt and less productive than my Macs, but I won't.
I have found the plug-in argument to be stale. There are plenty of plug-ins for the Mac - more than I would ever consider purchasing. If I was using Max I would be more concerned with plug-ins since it requires so many to equal the functionality of Lightwave.
Rendering nodes can be any platform you want. You can have a whole LAN of Windows and Macintosh computers rendering, so that doesn't fly.
There are upgrade cards for Macs, including dual processor cards. The idea that you have to spend over $3,000 for a new Mac is inaccurate.
I've been using Modeler in OS X and I can move my points in real time too! Woo hoo! No stuttering or delay!
Finally, modeling with a GeForce 2 Ultra card is faster than an ATI 128 on your Mac? Well duh! Get a Radeon, or get a GeForce 3 on a new Mac.
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:40 pm: |
Dear Keep Windows,
I'll quote you,
"Ken had a problem with his dual G4 and returned it and got a PC, like he isn't going to have problems with the PC. When he DOES have problems with the PC, what will he buy then?"
Do you really think I don't know this?? Do you think my decision was based on the G4? Did you ever think that maybe the companies where I work are PC based? Did you ever think I needed to run programs on a PC that are not avaible on a Mac?
I wish Macintosh the best. I have never claimed either platform is better than the other. Personally I think for the year 2001 that they both stink.
I'll quote you again,
"For me, the cost of the computer is irrelevant."
No one cares.....
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:43 pm: |
Hey Ian,
So when you loaded your Mac scene file, after you loaded everything, it worked fine??
| By Keep Windows (207.44.242.137) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 01:56 pm: |
"Do you really think I don't know this?? Do you think my decision was based on the G4? Did you ever think that maybe the companies where I work are PC based? Did you ever think I needed to run programs on a PC that are not avaible on a Mac?"
I'll quote you,
"Hi, I started this thread and all I have to say is "Don't buy a Daul 533!!" I did and sold it.
NewTek says it was my 533 that was the problem with renders and textures. I think it is a little bit Mac and and a little bit more of NewTek."
So what's the deal, Ken? Why would you buy a Mac in the first place if you needed a PC for work? Please start making some sense.
On June 3 you asked us if you should get a dual or single G4. On June 13th you told us not to get a dual G4 because you did and returned it. So in ten days you purchased a G4, had problems with it, and returned it.
No one cares? Can you follow a thread, Ken? My comment about price was a response to Ian's comment on price. Do you understand now? My point was that the PC does have a less expensive initial cost, the overall cost of ownership is much higher. Understand now? But don't take my word for it. You have a PC now. You will have lots of opportunity to find out for yourself. You can start with trying to get dual monitors to work properly on Windows.
Hey guys, why don't you use spaces in the file names? LOL!!!
Why don't you two take your PC technical support thread to the PC forum where there are lots of people with the same PC problems?
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 02:23 pm: |
Wow...
| By Ken Macleod (Ken) (24.189.172.31) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 03:19 pm: |
Ian, drop me an e-mail sometime.
Ken
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 07:06 pm: |
Sorry Mr. Keep Windows,
my assumption was that you had been visiting this board for a period of time. I am a multimedia developer who has roughly 11 years experience authoring on the Mac and 6 with Windows. I build Multimedia applications with Director and distribute them for a windows audience, so I do know a thing or two about windows. The things you are telling us I have said myself, and I wouldn't have believed anyone telling me I would voluntarily give up an app on the mac to buy a windows box for it!
I have spent over 2 years working with LW on the Mac and have come to the conclusion that Windows is actually a better platform for LW.
Sounds to me that you are just a little bit too much of a Mac zealot for my taste.
I really hope that after your condesending "you people don't have a clue" attitude that you experience some of the hell I (and others) have had with LW on the Mac. Frankly I can't stand it, I've used LW on windows for a week and already I know what I have been missing to this point. It feels like I've been freed.
Let's not loose site of the fact that some of us are actually artists with TOOLS. The mac and the PC are glorified airbrushes for us. Why should I invest the venom you seem to have in a tool. I have just found a better tool to do my work with. Is that so hard to understand.
Lighten up!
ian
| By KwamiMatrix (152.163.195.204) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 11:32 pm: |
Actually, you really have to analyze the dual 533 and a 733 more. Under MacOS X, a dual processor 533 should run faster because MacOS X is a symmetric multiprocessing OS, and it takes advantage of both 533 MHZ G4 7450 processors. If you still run a lot of software under MacOS classic, you might want to stick with a 733 since MacOS Classic does not support symmetric multiprocessing. MacOS X is the operating of choice for the Mac, so you should gradually use MacOS X anyway. I would probably wait until MacWorld this July in NewYork. Actually, if you can really wait, wait until January's Macworld. There is a very big possibility the the PowerMac G5 will be introduced then. The G5 Processor has many unique feature that I am not going to cover now, but I will tell you that there will be both 32 and 64 bit versions of the processor. If you decide to wait for the PowerMac G5's to come out, You might want to spend the money of the 64 bit PowerMac G5 workstation instead of the 32 bit PowerMac G5, especially if a company like Newtek ports LightWave to 64 bit MacOS X when it arrives. I will be a freshman computer engineering student this coming fall in university, and develope games for a hobby. I plan on Purhasing a Titanium PowerBook G4 of a PowerMac G5 Next Year, and I need a fast developement computer. The PowerBooks will be getting faster(I heard that there might be a dual processor PowerBook G4 this July at MacWorld), so you might also want to check those out.
| By Steff (195.46.246.46) on Thursday, June 14, 2001 - 11:42 pm: |
Is it the same story that was for the Good Expensive Oily Harley Davidson vs. the Newly design Clean & Cheap Japanese Motorcycles.....
| By toby (209.239.195.242) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 02:32 am: |
Mr. KeepWindows,
did your Prozak prescription run out?
I'm a mac user but I'd rather hear that someone has solved their problems by getting a PC than the raves of a fanatic who makes us all look bad.
| By Keep Windows (207.44.242.137) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 10:38 am: |
I think the zealot is the person whose only contribution to this Mac thread entitled "G4 533 or G4 733" is trying to convert us all to the PC. That takes gal, if you ask me.
If I were to go over to the PC forum and make a post on a thread entitled "Athlon or Intel?" and started telling them all to get a Mac, what do you think the response would be?
I too have been developing multimedia projects since Macromind Director 3, Macromind 3D and its parameter-based timeline, and PhotoShop 1 all on a Mac IICi with 8 megs of RAM. So what?
The point is you were spreading misinformation. A) you don't have to switch to a Windows license to use Windows nodes, B) the dual G4 533 (which was the subject of the thread) is faster than your 1.2 Ghz Athlon, C) you never mentioned OS X and it's memory protection, dynamic memory allocation, and SMP, D) you can have real-time modeling on a Mac with a decent video card too, you don't have to get a PC to do that.
" I build Multimedia applications with Director and distribute them for a windows audience, so I do know a thing or two about windows."
Then you know how lacking Windows is.
Ken told everyone not to get a dual G4 533 without providing any facts or reasons. This is irresponsible behavior, in my opinion. Who are the zealots telling everyone to get a Windows PC for LW? That would be Ian and Ken. But I'm the zealot? Whatever.
If you guys want to contribute to the Mac community with insight and tips, feel free to do so. All I see you doing is telling us how inferior our investment is.
"Mr. KeepWindows,
did your Prozak prescription run out?"
Personal insults? Nice.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 11:14 am: |
Mr. Keepwindows.
I have been having problems and missing deadlines with LW for a long time. I also have been posting my problems here for a while, hoping it was just me. However, there are many people here having similar problems. I was in no way bashing any platform. As I have said in many posts before. This is a LW board, not a photoshop, Director, Illustrator, or any other app. If it were an entirely different story would be coming form my keyboard. I use Director for both mac and pc and I wouldn't want to use it on windows. Period.
I feel after everything I have been through with LW on the Mac platform I am well justified in playing a devil's advocate position here. I am not by definition a windows user. I am a mac user who has been forced to move my LW to windows. I do however have 2 years of experience with LW on the mac to offer others experiencing similar woes.
I'm glad you have some experience with other Mac Apps. What puzzles me is that you haven't noticed the incredible disparity between LW and every other Mac app one could name. Frankly I'm hugely disappointed. Thus my switch to Windows.
Contrary to what you are saying, switching to windows is a very viable option for mac users. So they must deal with Windows. Big hairy deal. Millions do it every day without going blind or causing major genetic damage. Windows isn't the enemy. In fact, in the 3D realm it is the mother. We as mac users are the ducks out of water. Which is a change from the print and multimedia environment where Mac users rule.
As for mixing windows and mac in a render farm there are a few things you should be aware of.
1) Macs and PCs render differently, thus you cannot mix, say, 10 macs and 10 PCs on the same animation. If you don't believe me try rendering an identical scene on both platforms and compare the results.
2) according to Newtek one would require two seats, one PC and one Mac to have a mixed platform farm. I don't know if this has changed, but that was the word when I investigated it. I have been researching this switch for 3 months.
3) the sad fact is that sorry the athlon IS faster then the dual533/G4. I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is in error. Besides, as someone who runs their own business I can't ignore the glaringly obvious difference in COST. I do my own tech support, so I really can't justify more than TWICE the price for render units.
4) according to a couple experts in this area (whom I trust) a network of 10 single CPU render units is faster then a network of 5 duals. So if that's the case, which is better a network of expensive dual533 macs or a network of single processor disposable, cheap PC's. If you can't see the logic in that then you need to get some serious distance from your Mac.
I didn't mention OSX since I have yet to see anyone post anything but results SLOWER then OS9.1 I'm trying to increase rendering time not decrease it. I understand that, yes, within a year OSX will see some streamlining and speed increases, but I'm not waiting a year. Why should I when there is an alternative right here, now. Once the dual Athlons hit the market in a big way this 'dual533/g4 is almost as fast as a single 1.2ghz athlon' argument will be fruitless. For the same cost as an entry level G4/466 one can pick up a decked out dual athlon1.4/dual. Think about it.
As for the video card issue, ummmm. Can you tell me where to buy a high end graphics card to fit in my G4, I mean high end, not nVidia3?
I didn't think so.
I am not spreading 'misinformation' My posts are laced with 'in my conclusion' and 'in my opinion'. Most people understand that and take it for what it's worth. MY OPINION. Just as what you are saying is yours. Having said that I HAVE been through the mill with LW on the Mac. I HAVE switched over to PC with no ill effects. I HAVE been doing this for a long time. So I feel I'm in a position to make a fairly educated guess.
ian
| By Ted Lee (207.77.223.201) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 12:15 pm: |
Look, everybody railing on how they are going to switch their Mac licenses to Windows should just chill out. If you are considering that move, more power to you, but don't believe that everything will be peaches & cream once you move. There's an entire forum here devoted to LW on the PC. Skim through it and you will find that PC users have just as many (if not more) problems with LW running on their PCs.
Granted, their rendering times seem to be better when it comes to raytracing. Hopefully that gap will close with further optimizations to OS X and to LW under it, and to new Mac hardware coming down the pipe.
I really wish whoever is moderating these forums would put the kaybosh on any "i'm moving from mac to windows" whining...
And just out of curiousity ian, since you've moved from Mac to Windows - why do you still lurk around on the Mac board?
| By Keep Windows (207.44.242.137) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 01:09 pm: |
" I am a mac user who has been forced to move my LW to windows."
How so?
"I do however have 2 years of experience with LW on the mac to offer others experiencing similar woes."
Yet your only solution on this thread is to dump the Mac. Where are all the Mac-specific problems? I don't see any more than Win2K specific problems, including modeller freezing up.
" I use Director for both mac and pc and I wouldn't want to use it on windows. Period."
Why? Please tell us all why you prefer using Director on the Mac instead of Windows. I'm curious.
"What puzzles me is that you haven't noticed the incredible disparity between LW and every other Mac app one could name. Frankly I'm hugely disappointed."
6.5b runs great on my machine. I model and animate in OS X and render in OS 9.1 until they fix the OS X version's rendering issue.
"So they must deal with Windows. Big hairy deal. Millions do it every day without going blind or causing major genetic damage. Windows isn't the enemy. In fact, in the 3D realm it is the mother. We as mac users are the ducks out of water."
Do you think I care if I am perceived "out of the water"? Windows has more software in every category. More peripheral choices, etc. But it can't do something simple like support dual monitors very well. You yourself actually recommended just using a single AGP card on a PC. You don't put spaces in your file names for fear of Windows not knowing what to do with it, etc.
I don't just use 3D. I use PhotoShop WITH my 3D application. I use After Effects WITH my 3D application. I use great sound applications WITH my 3D application. When I look at the big picture, the Mac is a much more productive platform to work on, as you seem to agree with Director.
"Macs and PCs render differently, thus you cannot mix, say, 10 macs and 10 PCs on the same animation. If you don't believe me try rendering an identical scene on both platforms and compare the results."
This is misinformation, again. It's the same program, just compiled for the different platforms. I just got off the phone with tech support and they confirmed that you can do cross-platform render farms. I will also point to the LW 6.5 manual on page M10.19 that states"Warning-It is important to note that all of the rendering nodes do not have to be the same architecture (i.e.,Intel, DEC Alpha, SGI, Mac, etc.)
"according to Newtek one would require two seats, one PC and one Mac to have a mixed platform farm. I don't know if this has changed, but that was the word when I investigated it. I have been researching this switch for 3 months."
Yes, $995 for a Windows version if you own a Mac version. With a rack of Athlons and the $995 you have a farm for less money than a bunch of Macs, but you can still keep your Mac and animate and model on it.
"the sad fact is that sorry the athlon IS faster then the dual533/G4. I don't know where you are getting your info, but it is in error."
Chris' Lightwave Benchmarks has the typical 1.2 Ghz Athlon rendering the Raytrace benchmark in about 240-250 seconds. The typcial dual G4 533 renders it in 233 seconds. This was the subject - your 1.2 Ghz Athlon and the dual 533 G4.
"Besides, as someone who runs their own business I can't ignore the glaringly obvious difference in COST. I do my own tech support, so I really can't justify more than TWICE the price for render units."
Right. The cost of maintaining a Windows PC is much higher than a Mac. This is a fact that every independent research group like Gartner Dataquest and Metagroup has found. I spend a LOT more time maintaining the PCs, which is a lot of wasted productivity time.
Who are you kidding anyway? You run your own business, yet spend your time on this forum trying to convince us all to switch to PC.
You want a render farm, get a rack of Pentium IIIs since they are the fastest according to Chris' Lightwave Benchmarks.
"according to a couple experts in this area (whom I trust) a network of 10 single CPU render units is faster then a network of 5 duals. So if that's the case, which is better a network of expensive dual533 macs or a network of single processor disposable, cheap PC's. If you can't see the logic in that then you need to get some serious distance from your Mac."
Again, use the PCs and keep the Mac. The point is you don't have to dump the Mac.
BTW, the more machines you put on ANY render farm, be it After Effects, Cleaner, or Lightwave, the more overhead there is in maintaining the farm and the slower it gets. It's better to have less, more powerful machines than it is to have more, less powerful machines on a farm.
"I didn't mention OSX since I have yet to see anyone post anything but results SLOWER then OS9.1 I'm trying to increase rendering time not decrease it."
OS X's OpenGL screams, that's a fact. LW runs beautifully on it. I have noticed that rendering seems slower, so I boot in 9 to render - big deal.
The fact is LW in OS X doesn't have all of the type 2 errors you supposedly were getting on a daily basis. It's rock solid and extremely fast.
"Why should I when there is an alternative right here, now. Once the dual Athlons hit the market in a big way this 'dual533/g4 is almost as fast as a single 1.2ghz athlon' argument will be fruitless."
You think the Mac will be standing still at dual 533? Sorry.
"For the same cost as an entry level G4/466 one can pick up a decked out dual athlon1.4/dual. Think about it."
Yeah, I can get a cheap PC. What else is new? To bad I'd have to run Windows on it.
"As for the video card issue, ummmm. Can you tell me where to buy a high end graphics card to fit in my G4, I mean high end, not nVidia3?
I didn't think so."
ian, you have an ASUS 7700 GeForce 2-based 32 meg video card and you said it's great. Who are you trying to fool? The GeForce 3 rocks! Newtek has stated that they are updating Lightwave to take advantage of pixel and vertex shading. It's a great card.
GeForce 3
Fill rate: 3.2 Billion AA samples/s
Operations per second: 800 Billion
Memory bandwidth: 7.36 GB/s
ian, isn't it a drag to only have one monitor? I have THREE monitors on my production Mac with no performance issues because there are three separate video cards.
"I HAVE switched over to PC with no ill effects."
Then why do you have a post about transparent polygons taking forever to render in Win2K?
Please ian, take your "The PC is better" propoganda somewhere else. In the end, you are just a pro-PC person posting on a Mac tech support thread.
| By Chuck Baker (Cbaker) (207.235.86.2) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 02:17 pm: |
Ian is a NewTek product user posting on a NewTek forum, and is welcome to do so, as is any NewTek product user. Where a specific topic is truly misposted, the folks who own, operate, and moderate this forum, namely NewTek, will so determine and move it to the appropriate place.
People who are not the owners, operators, and moderators of this forum do not get to make rules or order other users of the board around. Anyone who really wants to expend a lot of energy over-reacting to the views of others and arguing the merits may certainly do so, but telling folks you disagree with to get lost is inappropriate, and is wasted breath in any case. So please don't.
All that said, this is a support forum for Mac LW users; discussions should be geared to addressing Mac support issues and bettering Mac LW for the folks who use it. Just offered as a gentle suggestion, folks.
| By ian (24.108.209.151) on Friday, June 15, 2001 - 10:33 pm: |
Chuck you are correct.
Ted, I'm still a mac user and have come to know some of the people who post here. I 'lurk' here because sometimes I actually can help because I also use Poser,Bryce,Director,Photoshop,Illustrator,Premier and many other apps that are part of the LW creation cycle. (and I do it on the Mac!)
My comments about windows and my own personal choices are just that. Personal choices. Ken made a choice, I made a choice, I have talked to four others who have made the same choice. Are we all bonkers, no. Some of use have more reasons to switch then not to switch.
As for Mr.Keepwindows. Your points have been read. I totally disagree, but Canada, like the US has a funny policy about freedom of choice.
If anyone wants specific information about anything feel free to email me. I have very good reasons for doing what I do, and I stand by them. I will continue to hang out at the Mac LW as long as I feel I'm being useful, since there are SO many people here who have helped me in SO many ways.
Though, I must say, only I know how much crap I have been through with LW on the Mac. To say that I'm a pro-PC person and dismiss my experiences and opinions thus isn't fair to those who may actually benifit from it. I'm not bashing the mac. I just have issues with LW on the mac, and that's a whole different kettle of fish, at least I think.
One more thing. There are not two armed camps here. It's a LW board with two platform groups. A great many people use both platforms, so why is it us or them? I use my mac for every aspect of development EXCEPT modelling and rendering. Why does it have to come down to "take your PC-loving crap elsewhere" What the heck is that about anyway?
thanks chuck for the spash of water.
ian