NewTek Forum

Newtek/Luxology part III: Poster's Strike Back

NewTek Forum: LightWave 3D®: LW Community: Newtek/Luxology part III: Poster's Strike Back

By arthur argote (Archiea) (66.32.149.54) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 01:05 am:

Awh, what the heck....

By Steve White (Hrgiger) (24.95.88.69) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 04:03 am:

Yawn.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.14.105.8) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 04:17 am:

It's 2003, Third Round!
Newbietek VS LuxoSlogy.
FIGHT!

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.22.14) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 07:58 am:

i'd rather have a tag team: newtek+luxology vs. alias|wavefront. hehehe

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.14.50.94) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 08:28 am:

looks more interesting Lernie!I just hope it's true ->( newtek+luxology=Team )

By Berislav Kovacic (Mav3rick) (195.29.61.56) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 09:43 am:

yea i would also like to see lux+newtek together against all evil guys out there... personally i really hope they will finally find best way out together .. that would be definatly relief for us users...

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 02:23 pm:

At least the other threads can now slowly drift back down to the depths of this forum.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.14.10.105) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:08 am:

What about a LuxoSlogy section in the new Newbietek forum!

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.236.198) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 05:35 pm:

Why not a Maya, XSI, C4D, Max, Poser, Truespace and AM section too? Chuck has stated over and over that Newtek is sole developer of Lightwave. This appears to leave Luxology to release cool and nifty free presets!

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 07:52 pm:

"This appears to leave Luxology to release cool and nifty free presets!"

You can believe that if you want.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.14.105.148) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 03:33 am:

There's a Digital Fusion section on the Newtek forum ...

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.236.198) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 03:50 am:

I believe that Newtek is the SOLE developer of That pretty well says it all. Its hard to interpret that any other way then what it means.
Fusion is a product that fits well with Newtek products. Newtek is doing a bundle that includes Fusion. That makes perfect sense.

By Digital Freak (Trilogy) (203.33.171.109) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:30 am:

Does that mean that presidents should read contracts more carefully And that a certain two people, made a win, win! If so Woohoo... otherwise, forget my jibberish.

By Karl Hansson (Karl) (217.208.3.35) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 09:54 am:

What's Luxology anyway?

By Matt Clary (Mattclary) (208.255.196.39) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:06 pm:

THAT is the 20 million dollar question! Lots of speculation, but no one, including the guys at Luxology, can seem to quite explain WHAT they do. Go look for old threads with "Luxology" in the title then get a comfortable chair, you'll be there a while...

By Chris Moschella (Chris_M) (12.101.14.2) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 02:30 pm:

***Quote***
Go look for old threads with "Luxology" in the title then get a comfortable chair, you'll be there a while... :-)
***End Quote***

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Matts right, there are volumes of pointless luxology/newtek discussions in this forum, which i contributed too teehee =] Take a look though, it is a good entertaining read.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

This is a quote from the bottom of the page on Luxology's website:

"LightWave�3D�and�the�LightWave�logo�are�registered�trademarks�of�NewTek,�Inc."

Thus, nobody is disputing that Newtek will always own the title "Lightwave 3D". This confirms that any future development of the software "Lightwave 3D" will be done by Newtek, just as Newtek has always said.

However, it leaves Luxology to develop something else under a different name. Merely "nifty new presets"? I don't think so. A competing product? Who knows. Probably!

By -=KrAy-ZeE=- (Krayzee) (12.254.138.39) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 04:41 pm:

I doubt they're making a competing product for several reasons. 1, the company's founders include the main LW programmers and no doubt have non-competition clauses in their contracts. 2, the people behind the company have been strong LW supporters in the past and continue to support LW. Look around the website; LW tutorials, LW news, LW presets, LW jobs, LW gallery, LW programmers.

By policarpo (Policarpo) (168.215.166.253) on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 05:42 pm:

it's always been about a seize for power you guys.

a certain someone wants the cake and to eat it too...i just hope our two beloved creators can survive the hot water long enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel and get back to making something the rest of us can use.

if they are making a competitive product...good luck....it would take an application beyond anything we've seen in the past 5 years to surpass Softimage, LightWave, and Maya as a tool to be considered for most studios.

Unless of course they are only concerned about making a $10,000.00 app which places it out of the reach of most small studios...who use LightWave and Maya predominantly. My guess is that this is what they want to do...it's just a hunch of course.

those are my 3 cents.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.189.81) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 04:52 am:

Policarpo, I think you nailed it.
Here is a company who is trying to get people to their site but yet wont talk about their plans. So they have some job postings and some viewlets and theyre supposed to somehow be the last bastian of Lightwave. Theyve gone from "WE ARE LIGHTWAVE!" to "want some cool presets?" I dont know of a business model that works on building 5 or 6 viewlets and giving away free presets. Frankly there is better support elsewhere.
What I dont understand is how they can better support LW by leaving Newtek (who is the sole developer). How can you do a better job being LESS associated then when you were 100% in charge of the product? That doesnt make any sense to me. Chuck has stated very clearly that Newtek has no relationship with Brad or Luxology but only with Alan and Stuart. There is a VERY clear distinction there. Again, how does that somehow equal better support? So they have News, presets and whatever. You can find that stuff anywhere else. I dont see anything new or any innovation there.
Lux is putting up some viewlets and says theyre all about education. Again, WHY couldnt they have done that before when they were in charge of Lightwave? Compare what theyve ever done when they were part of Newtek and since they formed Lux with what William and Chuck have been able to accomplish. There is absolutely no comparison. The Lightwave community is stronger since theyve left, there is better support since they left, there are far more tutorials/educational materials since they left, the price of Lightwave has dropped since they left, there is a ton of free textures, content, models that have become available since they left. It always struck me as strange that you have the head of Lightwave development who knew that customers wanted the very things that William and Chuck have produced, producing training videos on the side. Since they left and formed Lux they have done more to disrupt the Lightwave community then anything else. If you dont believe it take Matts advice and read all the threads on the various forums about this whole split and compare it to anything useful on Luxs site. Youll spend days reading about the disruption while taking maybe an hour to read thru their incredible LW support.
I personally like the current Newtek FAR better.

By Michael Wolf (Lightwolf) (80.131.15.202) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 05:03 am:

Hi Larry,

my only problem with the lux and newtek debate is the following:
Newtek states they are the sole developer. Fine.
Alan and Stuart have contracts with Newtek. Fine too.
Then I start looking at the senior engineers there, and find most of the people that have advanced LW to where it is right now (Except for Alan and Stuart, Arnie Cachelin and Bob Hood are missing too, and they are both with NT AFAIK).
Now, when I first read the lux stuff, I said: Wow, great, with that team of senior engineers there, and a new codebase, LW8 or whatever Mecca, is going to blow us away, _but_ NT has no realtionship to lux, so I assume those senior engineers won't be involved. And _that_ worries me.

My two euro cents

Mike

By riki (Suture) (203.109.249.131) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 05:54 am:

The whole issue strikes me as being a bit strange. Some how I get he feeling that we're not getting the full picture.

I agree with Larry, we have seen a lot of improvements recently in terms of support on the Newtek site, more tutorials, new forums coming soon etc, the price reduction.

But I think confusion in the marketplace is bad for consumer confidence and both companies would do well to settle this matter if their true interest is in the development of LW.

The few comments that I've read from Chuck on this matter seem more like he's reading an offical statement. Has this matter gone to the courts??

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (62.104.211.64) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:22 am:

Hi,

Larry, I got to admit I have a feeling like the sudden appearance of Luxology and their activities was more like a "wake up!!"-call for NewTek, cause everything they did came AFTER Lux threw the ball into the game.
To me, the current support by NewTek through "free textures" and "free models" and stuff looks more like some kind of tranquilizer to have things LOOK as if development was going on.
I have not used any of the free stuff yet, I find it cool that these goodies are there, but I am a fundamentalist when it comes to NT/LightWave.
As long as there are quite a few things that need improvement in LW since 4.0 (my first purchase), I could not care less about free textures or free objects, I rather want more frequent bugfixes and updates, that's for sure !

When I buy LW, I get a lot of textures and objects, thank You, but no on-line help, no tooltips, no unlimited undo, no render-current-viewport, no free character rigs, not quite a documentation that is up to standards of 1999, not to mention 2003, no state-of-the-art network render-program (look at Cinema4D, theirs even works through a browser!).

Its cool that NT eventually started overhauling their image and user-support through www.lightwave3d.com, but it still looks like some kind of patch instead of a revolution.
All these tutorials should be on my CD when I buy the software, plus the additional textures and objects, plus an "Inside"-book.
The current "bonus training material" is EXACTLY a stip in the right direction, it just took quite some time until NT realized that selling LW alone might not be appropriate anymore, with the strong competition and their ridiculous boni, trade-offs, bundles, crossgrades etc.

I really appreciate Williams efforts, its great to have a real community artist who knows what he does and is a communication ace.

But all these things don't distract me for a second from the fact that 8 has two and half more months until I consider it "too late".
Its been almost a year now since 7.5.

By Jeff (Pixelmonk1) (156.80.138.138) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 06:38 am:

What's being done on Newtek.com has nothing to do with with development of the next generation of Lightwave. It's a different group of people. Don't think just because the webmaster and a few others are updating the website means there's no developers.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.13.70.127) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 07:49 am:

Great post Emmanuel, I completely agree with you. For me Newtek needs TIME ( The price of LW go down yes...but how many years for a real evolution) and this is a BIG problem...NEWTEK MUST COLLABORATE in my opinion.

By Jeff (Pixelmonk1) (156.80.138.138) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:13 am:

collaborate with who?

By policarpo (Policarpo) (66.25.138.182) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:11 am:

Duh! Colloborate with the aliens.

all we can do is wait and see...and everyone knows how waiting sucks!

By Jeff (Pixelmonk1) (156.80.138.138) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:32 am:

Well the aliens and the Krispy Kreme corp. are a given!

It's just getting old hearing people tell Newtek what to do or else the world will cease to exist!

Those in the know, know. Those of us who don't, don't. A pretty simple concept to follow till those which don't know get a press release therefore giving them the knowledge, and a sense that all is right in their little world.

By policarpo (Policarpo) (66.25.138.182) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:16 am:

But for those who know know that those who don't know know that they want to know what they know so that all can know...you know?

-policarpo

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (80.13.70.92) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:31 am:

Business is business.
YES in the end the customer choose, and i will choose or not to support Newtek in the future. This is very important for me ( and i think i am not alone to think that way)and this is one of the reasons this forum exists.
No one want a PMG story again and look at the PMG situation...

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (145.254.213.8) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:35 am:

Hi,

Jeff:"It's just getting old hearing people tell Newtek what to do or else the world will cease to exist!"

Jeff, it's not "people", its "customers".
Important difference.
Was I a car salesman, I couldn't care less.
As a commercial user of this software, I have to keep an exit open, which is bad.
No news is bad news in this case, especially after the Lux/NewTek debate, and especially after seeing coming a lot of free upgrades to the Toaster community and not a single to us Wavers.
Plus the fact that rumours say the dev team has been decreased.
I don't even want details, I just need to know about WHEN to exspect new update.
Has the Linux-rendernode been finished as announced, 4q/2002 ?

By Jeff (Pixelmonk1) (156.80.138.138) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:02 am:

And I'm not a customer?

Customers... people.. it's all the same when both companies have already made public statements about their affiliation. It doesn't matter if the queen of England asks about it. When Newtek is ready to announce something, they will. You asking about the Linux node is a prime example. They announced it around summer of last year. It's not here. Do you want them to announce when they beleive the next version of LW will be available when it may be a ways off? Development companies just can't win these days. They're damned either way. They don't announce.. there's a problem. They do announce, and it runs late, there's a problem. They finally release the product, and there's a problem (as "customers" feel their own personal demands on the product weren't met).

I'm a customer and I'm not concerned about this Luxology vs Newtek "thing". There's many more people.. ooops.. customers, who feel the same way. There could be more of us that feel there's no need to continue on with this thread than those who feels there's some sort of conspiracy going on. Some just like to ••••• for the hell of it.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.189.81) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

Emmanuel,
Development IS going on, that I do know. Putting out free tutorials, objects, content help file etc isnt a tranquilizer its GOOD customer service and what people have wanted and needed for a long time. These were things long ignored by our friends at Luxology while they were at the helm 100% in control of Lightwave.
The good news is that Lightwave Development IS proceeding. It is not stalled but moving along.
As a customer I have been associated with Newtek since it was created. For me personally I am more happy and excited about what I know IS going on then I have been in a long time.

By Tony Carretti (Tcarretti) (208.191.121.7) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

I'm so tired of seeing this same bullsh*t everyday. The truth, from what i've seen (and I live in San Antonio and hang with some of the people at Newtek is that there is NO development team that belongs to Newtek. Who IS working on future versions of Lightwave? Gee, might that be the creators and the programmers who have been working for them? Get smart people, you're not going to see ANYTHING new in the way of Lightwave until this whole issue gets resolved between Newtek and Luxology. Everyone is keeping a good face on it for now because neither side is SURE that they will come out on top. You can spin it any way you like, twist words around any way you like. Actions speak a lot louder than words and I've become very uncomfortable with the "stealth" mode that has become the norm for anything that has to do with Lightwave development. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this and to be honest I really don't give a crap. I spent the money for Lightwae, no one twisted my arm. Sure, I would love to see some better character animation tools native to the app rather than have to depend on third party plugins. If it ever gets here, I'm sure that the upgrade will be well worth it. God knows it's been in "development" long enough.........

If not, you either do the best with the toolset that you have or you migrate to something different. That's my two cents, flame away!

Tony

By policarpo (Policarpo) (66.25.138.182) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 03:35 pm:

he said.
she said.
they said.
we said.
enough said.
not said.
should've said.

what was said?

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.189.81) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 03:42 pm:

I agree Tony. There has never been a Lightwave development team in San Antonio ever which may be why you dont see one there. That was all done out of San Francisco.Many of the developers work from home. I DO know that there ARE people working on Lightwave 8. Bugs ARE being fixed.
Work IS continuing. I do some hanging out with some Newtek people myself. I had dinner with them two nights ago. They have been out here this month for a week and the same last month talking to key people and visiting as many studios as they can. Plans are underway to also get Lightwave into other key accounts. They are coming out again. Last month I went with them to several studios and development on Lightwave is definately NOT stalled.
Stealth mode?...I dont know of any companies who reveal their inner workings to anyone. How many people know who developed Photoshop, XSI, Maya, Max, C4D etc etc? How many of those same companies openly air their laundry? This is not something unique to Newtek. I think that its not a good thing that this whole buildup around Alan and Stewart has gone on. It should be about the software and company, not individuals in the company. When its about individuals we get this schism that resulted in Luxology. All that a customer should know is that they can buy the software, the software is being supported and the software is being developed and upgraded. Anything else is not the customers business nor should be.

By Michael Wolf (Lightwolf) () on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 04:09 pm:

Hi Larry et al...

Sorry, I couldn't hold back:

> Stealth mode?...I dont know of any companies who reveal > their inner workings to anyone. How many people know who > developed Photoshop, XSI, Maya, Max, C4D etc etc?

Have a look at those posts about Chris (Cox ?) in the Mac section... :-)

> How many > of those same companies openly air their laundry? This is > not something unique to Newtek.

Actually, looking at other Newtek products, this is something that is not unusual for Newtek.

I'm a VTNT2 customer also, and if I look a some of the public forums, I know what is in development and what to expect in the future, which for me means hat I'll hold on to the product since it will cover my future needs.

Now, why can Dr. Cross, president of development for Newtek AFAIK, reveal something about VTNT2, but not about LW?

Are they biased towards one of their products? Is there currently nothig to reveal? Or are they just keeping shut as usual? Are we all schizophrenic? (Both, me and me) :-)

I'm not blaiming them for anything, but the whole current situation has made some users (I admit, including me) quite insecure.

> I think that its not a good > thing that this whole buildup around Alan and Stewart has > gone on. It should be about the software and company, not > individuals in the company. When its about individuals we > get this schism that resulted in Luxology. All that a > customer should know is that they can buy the software, the > software is being supported and the software is being > developed and upgraded. Anything else is not the customers > business nor should be.

Sorry Larry, but this isn't true: Cross Keyer, Kai's Power Tools, Knoll, Mark Sylvester... even Hash!

Names like that are like a brand, and are treated as such by the community. Especially if the community is a tight as the LW community, and you even have developers answering questions (big kudos to Arnie here...).

Or look at the positive reactions to William and Chuck, they are a buildup around people too.

On a positive side, this whole discussion only shows how much we care!

And now get back to creating something beautiful with LW, all of you :-)

Cheers,

Mike

Oh, and please take it with a grain of salt...

By Stewart Green (Stewart) (62.6.78.75) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 05:25 pm:

Hi Fellas

In the latest edition of 3D World mag that I received today it says on page 28:

Lightwave 3D
With development now split between NewTek and Luxology, question marks inevitably hang over LightWave's future direction."

Please note this is a direct quote and not my opinion.

So, what is the future direction - or just the future of LW?

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.11.65) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:09 pm:

oooo. 3d world's gonna get sued! la la lala!

By riki (Suture) (203.109.249.131) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 08:18 pm:

I wonder what features Lightwave X will have?? I hope it's better that OSX and FLash MX. But we need to catch up guys we're already 3 behind :-)

xman

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.189.81) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 09:47 pm:

Im curious as to where that quote came from. Lux had something like that posted oh their site too but is no longer there. Id be willing to bet that the future direction of LW is still 3D and lies squarely in the hands of Newtek.
Hey Mike,
I agree that some companies do focus around some of its officers. Hash, Kai and others are the main people who created their products and its only fitting that they use that paradigm. Martin Hash especially started out as just him with an animation product on the Amiga many years ago. Layout and Modeler were developed by contractors for Newek. Many of the other features that we all like and enjoy were also developed by Newtek employees and contractors beyond Alan and Stuart. SubDs in modeler didnt come from Stuart, Hypervoxels, particles, Spreadsheet, Motion Mixer and others didnt come from Alan. Newtek has people and can easily find others who are awesome 3D programmers.Its not a hard thing to do. My point is where does Alan and Stuart end and Newtek start in what we call Lightwave? Newtek has a huge investment in its development. Tim Jennison could rightly call it Timwave 3D but doesnt. Again Lightwave has been a collaboration with Newtek funding it and paying for marketing and so forth. Its easy to forget that. I used Layout and Modeler when they were Videoscape 3D and Modeler3D on the struggling Amiga. Newtek and the Video Toaster put those products on the map.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 10:35 pm:

I'd like to know how things are organized until the Luxology issue is resolved.

Luxology makes a claim to ownership of parts of the Lightwave code, though not the Lightwave name. Newtek says they don't have any claim. We also know as fact that Newtek has sole responsibility and control over anything released in the future called "Lightwave 3d".

Riki Suture asked an interesting question (earlier in this thread) about if there's any court case. Upcoming court cases are usually made publicly available on the court lists. Texas? California? It might be worth looking up.

In the meantime, how are the two companies proceeding? Are they really working on separate applications? Newtek works on Lightwave, Luxology works on something they'll one day reveal under a different name?

Do they have some kind of temporary understanding going, where they'll all work on the same application, but the winning party will compensate the other (for development work) when it is resolved?

I don't know the answers. In the absence of facts, speculation is all that customers can do. This is why a speedy resolution is essential.

I have no doubt whatsoever that development is forging ahead. Rumor has it that there are big developments and major advances in character tools coming along.

But things aren't being released. I don't know why, but I can only guess that the Newtek/Luxology dispute has something to do with why releases are being delayed until the dispute is resolved. I could be wrong, but have no other way to explain it. Any clarification by the parties involved would be welcome, but I assume that legalities prevent open statements from being made.

From a user point of view, I consider the issue annoying, rather than something disastrous. The cool new software will find its way to the customers eventually. The wait is very annoying, though.

By arthur argote (Archiea) (68.164.57.155) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:19 pm:

Emmanuel, larry, great points. Beam's up to his usual conspiracies... ;D

I'm affraid i have to lean towards Emmanuel opinion, though. Larry I aggree that the efforts on the part of NT's with the tutorials and so forth does address the customers concerns. However, that combined with the free textures and contest and so forth really feels like Nt is appeasing our concerns. Feels almost like guilt.

My opinion also stems from NT's last appearance at Siggraph. I felt that NT had regressed to the VT days of 1994. It was almost amateurish compared to just the NAB before!!!

I beileve that the SF group, which is now the Lux group was a key group behind LW. With that dissolved, I believe we are entering a Video Toaster centric era with NT. The siggraph show SO demonstrated it with the attitude of the company relapsing to the "studio in the box" shouting match.... comparing aura paint to the Inferno... please....

I think william, the new evangelist, is a great guy, and his efforts with the tutorials and so forth are great. whats missing is Brad's pursuit of a higher profile presentation of LW. Note Luxology's recent profile of LW use in DD.. very nice.

While the contest and tutorials are great, I'd rather see more of an effort that apeases new customers as opposed to old. More Coverage of LW's use on Star trek... there's very little on NT page about that. honestly, If I were a new customer, and I came to the NT site, the first thing i'd see is this very hash-esque contest and so forth. Instead they should be seeing a splash page on Nemesis, or other high profile Lw exploits. Instead you see alot of NT offering current LW user's their 15 mins of fame on the website.

I know this sounds harsh, but try to see it from the competative stand point of todays market. some maya or houdini guy comes looking around here, and it all looks very Hash like... oh look, how cute, a logo contest. I go to Maya and I see Spiderman, ice age, Star wars 3D games.. I think Brad understood this.

So Emmanuel's point of all this seeming a bit like a tranquilizer seems a bit appropriate, especially looking at Luxology's concurrent coverage of LW.

Other issues, in particular to the mac community, is Lw's sudden disappearence from the Apple page. You look up 3D at the apple site and you are lead to believe that only maya exists. Newtek, change this NOW. Put the f*cking demo as a dl link on the apple page. This is exactly what I mean.. so while new users go to the apple page and equate maya to 3D on a mac, LW has no presence. Instead existing customers get dazzled with free textures..

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 11:37 pm:

Arthur, the point that Luxology claimed intellectual property rights to the Lightwave code isn't conspiracy. That's what Luxology originally claimed in the CGchannel interview with Brad Peebler.

The rest is speculation, but I made it clear that it is speculation, and in the absence of facts it's hard to find another explanation for the delay in the next revision of Lightwave.

Could this also mean that when the Lux issue is resolved, all that pent-up software will be released in a flood? Wishful thinking!

By Digital Freak (Trilogy) (203.22.238.139) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:13 am:

This is a really complicated subject.

But just adding to Larrys question as to why former staff should leave the 'floating' ship

I believe that the former NT staff that have left to other places, had a real concern with the management and direction that NT was leading.

I do believe that this is fairly justified, as at the time it was quite obvious that the lights were on but nobody was home at NT.

Newtek have made many mistakes in the last few years, and problems and arguments were increasing over everything, including pricing structure, development, marketing, money. Plugin and 3rd party developers to name but a few.

The direction of the company and the product(s)
were under a cloud. The fact that the program is owned by three entities is an added complication.

I do believe that the powers at Luxology, did try for sometime to make the NT people see the problems. They were most likely ignored.

So does this mean you should go and try and start a competitve company, and take the knowledge you have learned with you. (most probally yes, as this is capitalism)

The fact that a credible team of people was formed, most likely suggests that his crits were not unfounded or singular. Obviously everyone who works with LW is fairly passionate about it.

It takes deep pockets to compete with big 3D companies who have large marketing powers.
and plenty of cash and assets too...
Something that seems lacking for Lux..

They have had a team of people on contract for sometime, and still aren't generating revenue.

Lawsuits, bad PR outbursts, and some lack of fine print reading, seem like a bad omen for such a venture.

And while i certainly think some of the reasons for a departure are well founded. The move was handled badly, pretending to be something your not, is not going to do you any favours.

Ego's and power were obviously other reasons as to why this happened. Good intentions mixed with powerful ideas, executed badly. Equals the current situtaion.

Mistakes have been made on both sides, NT have been better lately, but so far have been slow to show any development on anything other than Toaster2. (I don't mind slow as long as it's worth the wait)

NT now have to show they are listening....

Luxology have to show why their vision should be shared and past mutinys forgiven. (And personal threats too;)

...Both can be done easily.

Legally i think NT are in a very strong position.
And that could mean vapourware for Lux...

Friday Beerdays are not so good for ranting, hiccup....

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:37 am:

I agree Arthur. I think the contests are cool, but I don't think they would lure me to buy Lightwave if I were not a LW user. It's somewhat of a good way to get the LW community going. On the other hand, to see more of how Lightwave is used in films, tv etc would be much more exciting and promotive.

I think doing profiles is a good idea, but I do agree that Luxology's profile on Digital Domain is much more effective and interesting. I personally have not been inclined to read all of the profiles on the LW site. They seem to be about small animation studios or independent artists. Let's get some profiles on ILM, Digital Domain, Eden FX, Savage Frog,...some studios that are using Lightwave in a high profile way.

To sum it up, the whole contest, tutorial and profile strategy feels almost like what a small newsgroup would do. It's good. It's just feels oversaturated on material and a little low on substantive content, in my opinion. It doesn't seem to make LW shine. So, instead it feels forced in an effort to garner more support within the LW community itself...not outside of it.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't need this. It's nice, though. But I just want to know, bottom line, what the heck happened with Luxology/LW issue, what did that have to do with LW's development and what's the real buz on the next version. Because if Luxology has "nothing to do with Lightwave", then that's very disappointing. There are some very talented programmers on that team. And why "wouldn't" Newtek want to work with them? No side-stepping, slick talk or any number of tuts, contests or profiles are going to erase that very relevant issue that so publically revealed itself months ago. No one is stupid. No one has forgotten the mishap.

Personally, I don't think it's wise to be so hush hush and not have "some" good buz about the next LW. The buz is cloudy. I don't have to know the details, just some excitment that the next LW will be a spectacular and significant upgrade that will fix so many of it's current flaws and limitations. I must admit, what Brad said about Mecca got me excited. I think that's "really" what LW users want. Now, I still don't know what to think, and all the contests, tuts and profiles are good efforts, but it's just not enough to make me feel safe. Sorry, it's just an opinion.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.226.92) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:10 am:

I think the amateurish feel to the demoing at Siggraph was due a lot to William having to come in a take over a huge mess left over by the San Fran group when they left.
I felt that the demos at the rollout of 7.0 at the LA siggraph were worse. All around the Newtek booth was A/W, XSI and everyone else showing awesome characters while Brad demoed a character that looked like Mr. Potatoe Head. I couldnt believe with all the cool stuff people have posted on these forums, he was demoing something that looked like it was modeled by a 3rd grader.
THAT was embarressing. I also noticed that NONE of the recent stuff Foundation Imaging had just finished up (Dan Dare) was shown at all. In fact MANY things that a lot of studios had done never was shown. I think they were shooting for such a high profile of client that they left everyone who was really using lightwave in the dust. If Brad understood what you say he did why on earth show what he showed on the floor?
Lux has a list of strategic partners on their website. Interestingly enough, last month when I went with William and Donetta and visited several studios with them. There was not one studio that was happy with the way they felt they were treated by the San Fran group. One studio out of all of them was more or less "neutral". Most of the studios were consistant with:
1. They were ignored.
2. Their needs were not met.
3. They werent interested in going with Lux.
4. They were shocked that Newtek was out paying attention to them, wanting to do profiles about them and their work and was interested in getting their feedback.
Digital Domain in particular was interesting.
We met with about 10 people. They said that the san fran group would come down, take REAMS of notes and had TOMES about their problems and concerns and SEEMED interested but would then leave and not fix the things they pointed or implement things they needed. They said that when they asked for certain features they were always answered with "why would you want that?" DDs response was "what bloody business is it of yours...were the customer and thats what we want"
(Im quoting this to the best of my recollection).
I then asked simply "why would you want to continue to do business with a group who treated you that way?" The supervisor of this group stood up and said "We have no interest in doing business with Luxology. We have always had a good relationship with NEWTEK and plan to continue with it. We may ••••• about Lightwave during the day but at the end of the day we love the software" This was pretty much the feeling at every place we went to. In fact Newtek is out here in LA visiting more studios and getting similar feedback. What can I say? This is what they said.
The San Antonio group was focussed on the Toaster.
Thats a GOOD thing. Companies need to diversify.
Brad was 100% in control of Lightwave. He made all the decisions. I believe in giving credit where credit is due, both good AND bad. I find it ironic that people point the finger at Newtek when bad things happen but point to Brad when good things happen. He was the person who made both happen. I dont see how people can think that just because the san fran group left to form Lux that they somehow have magically changed overnight into what they should always have been.
Its easy to say one thing but actions speak louder then words.
Policarpo said: "it's always been about a seize for power you guys. A certain someone wants the cake and to eat it too...i just hope our two beloved creators can survive the hot water long enough to see the light at the end of the tunnel and get back to making something the rest of us can use." Like I said, its EASY to say I love LW but its the results of actions that count.
I for one am glad that those people are gone from Newtek. William, Chuck and others are not simply appeasing the masses but cleaning up the aftermath, doing what the san fran group should have done from day one and getting things back on track. I DO know that things are looking good for Lightwave 8 and beyond. I think this is the worst time for Lux to do what theyve done with the market the way its been. A/W, Discreet and others are really struggling. As I said before, Im more excited about Lightwaves future now then ever before.

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:15 am:

It seemed clear what Luxology's vision for LW "was." A professional tool that could compete with softimage. I have no idea what direction, goal or vision Newtek has for LW. Period. All I hear is that LW is in development. But that's not a strong, compelling or inspiring stance on the issue. And with what's on the LW site, it seems Newtek is leaning more for smaller, independent companies, where LW is more toward the independent crowd, lowering the price, making 3d more general.

My opinion: people want the high end tools at an affordable price. People want powerful tools that are easy to use. An app that is as effective to the independent artist as it is to the big studio environment. That's what I want, anyway. :-)

I don't know. Maybe it's either or. High end or not.

In the end, what really is Newtek's vision and goal for Lightwave? It's not enough to say LW is in development. Can we customers get an idea of what the vision is, at least? Without vision and direction, those words do not inspire or get me excited, personally.

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 01:53 am:

That's insightful news, Larry.

I too feel it's mighty bold to start a new 3d company at this time. You'd have to establish a new user base, marketing team, etc. No easy endeavor.

I'm really looking forward to LW getting rid of the skelegon issue, where you have to go back and forth between Modeler and Layout to adjust bones and set rest positions, angles, etc. That process is so awkward and time consuming. Love to adjust the endomorph meshs while you move bones Layout. Sorry for that rant. But I really wish the whole bone, character setup, posing and deforming process could be much easier and faster. An integrated Pose slider system would help too. I guess this should be in feature request section. Oh well,...back to Lux and Newtek.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.226.92) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 02:01 am:

I think just the fact that Newtek is out visiting those studios, getting feedback about bugs, taking feedback on what should be done with Lightwave says it all. I wouldnt consider Digital Domain a small studio. There are other large studios who are using Lightwave or are interested in it. Newtek is calling on those people as well.
What I heard from the Newtek people is that they want to develop Lightwave based on what these studios need and want. Most smaller studios or one man shops also need much of the same capability, just on a smaller scale. They want to big studios to hammer on the software but let the benefits run down to even the single end user. From what I have seen and heard Newtek is not interested in making Lightwave another Hash or Truespace but truely plans and wants it to complete with and exceed XSI, Maya, Max or whatever comes along. Keep in mind that Im not speaking for Newtek but I AM repeating what Ive heard. If I thought that Newtek was going to dumb down lightwave at all or make it another Hash/Truespace Id be gone. Newtek dropping the price is more of a realistic move based on the market. A/W and others are following suit. Giving away free software over the years to studios is coming back to bite A/W because they dont have as big a user base as people think because few individuals could afford it. Lightwave is not only in many studios but in the hands of talented individuals. As I said, Im more excited and happy with Lightwaves direction then I have been in a while.

By Juan J. Gonzalez (Juanjgon) (80.58.7.235) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 06:02 am:

But only one question ... if NT is asking today of what features need next version of LW ... when we can see this next version?.

Personally i am very happy with actual version, and i can wait long time for new versions, but i think that industry is moving fast, and if LW left his position in market time to recover it could be long ... see example of XSI ... great aplication who need to gain his position, left time ago from Softimage 3D.

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (145.254.214.84) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 06:15 am:

Well, Larry,

thats encouraging and very much appreciated.
So now it looks like what is going on right now in matters of user support is what people like Chukc, William and NewTek in general wanted to get on the way since long ago, and never really had the chance to do, not just a reply to Luxs ignition.
Good, very good, indeed, and here we come to what seem to be the core problem:
the fact that some users, such as me, have problems with NTs public relation is something that should raise interest at NewTek's.
We are mostly not complaining about the software itself, but how this wonderful pearl of animation package is treated by its very own creator.

The times of "the software that was used for Bab5 and seaQuest" are over, I remember though that the old ad in the german "Amiga magazine" with photos of Vorlon cruisers and terran fighters and Hercules monsters sent shivers down my spine, it was so friggin' cool.

That is terribly lacking right now.
The website has a nice design, but it doesn't do justice to the fantastic success this software is for the users.
LW made the way for desktop visual effects, it was a key product for ST:TNG, Voyager, Enterprise, TITANIC etc, etc, etc.
There is a real lack of hype at NTs LW-related website.
You have a software that opens doors and then You dress it like an ugly duckling.

The first thing You hear about recent effects-shows is "Maya".
That is what should be an opener for www.lightwave3d.com.
Feature spotlights.
As soon as it was known that LW was used for Ep2, too, this should have been on the front page of lightwave3d.com, and it should stay there for a while, cause that is really a teaser.

Its like Arnold S. driving the car Your company designed, but not tell anyone about it :/

Its good to hear that development is proceeding, but when You mention XSI, MAYA, C4D, then You have to mention that they do updates more frequently, its unbearable that paying customers have to wait a YEAR for single bugfixes.
It would be good to have a constant upgrade program (CUP), this would allow for immediate feedback, just imagine programmers adressing the issues of key customers like DD, ILM etc, cause it si also THIS kind of support that gives MAYA this advantage.
I am not asking for all NT travel into studios and become on-site support programmers,but a small step into that directon would lead to a real up-to-date software and great user feedback,
and confidence.
Of course, this would mean that a lot of the stuff tahts now thrid party would need to be "out of the box".

Just ideas.

By Arnie Cachelin (Arnie) (66.81.219.254) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 10:53 am:

Having been in a number of the meetings with D2 that Larry has mentioned, I can state that he has completely misunderstood their context and meaning. While I am sure that many D2 feature requests were not implemented the day we returned from LA, the point of asking "why do you need this", (which is, in all fairness, a common response) is not to be confrontational. Rather it is critical for implementing solutions to their problems. Maybe the customer is always right... they have a funny way of showing it, since many of their requests were already implemented, and they only needed to have them explained. More importantly, getting feedback from the customer about a feature they want is not nearly as useful as getting information about the problem they are trying to solve. That is what "Why do you need this means". Their suggestions for a solution may be helpful, but without understanding the full internal architecture and dev plans, such suggestions invariably create a hodgepodge of ad hoc solutions. They might say "make a button that reorders points to match another mesh". Further interrogation reveals that the problem is editing models with many morph objects. The better solution, which they didn't suggest is to embed morphs in objects, and edit them along with the base mesh.

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.24.236) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 11:09 am:

"Their suggestions for a solution may be helpful, but without understanding the full internal architecture and dev plans, such suggestions invariably create a hodgepodge of ad hoc solutions."

that's what i'm thinking all the time. without really understanding where lightwave's architecture is coming from (and who really understands but the guys who program it), feature requests, imho, ought to be focused on what problems you have and what you want to achieve, rather than suggesting a method or architecture (sorry tom! ) by which lightwave programmers ought to take to achieve what we think we want.

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (145.254.218.168) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 11:36 am:

Erm, hello ? Oh, now its the users fault, of course !
What Arnie said is the total programmer's point of view, and so I think he underestimates the knowledge of the customer, especially *professional* artists, quite a lot.
When I am working on a project, I surely do my homework and try to find the fastest and easiest way to solve a problem.
What is the point in asking "Why do You need that ?" when I say "I want to see skelegons behave in modeler as they do in Layout !"
What Arnie said reveals to me the reason why some tools in LW do absolutely NOT work as *I* exspect them to work, as an artist.
A programmer surely understands instantly why I am using the "Curve Conform"-tool in the wrong way, but the fact remains: for ME its not working, and it is NTs job to make it work like I want, or I go elsewhere (simplified).

No "undo" ?
Clear and load again !

Anyone remember the 6.0-UV-mapping debacle ?
Who didn't do his homework back then, when every user was scratching his head trying to find out why LWs UV-mapping didnt work as exspected ?

I know quite a few programmers, and some of them try to get something done as fast as possible without really doing it the "customers way".
"The feature is in there, it just works the way *I* think, not the way YOU think."
That is pretty bad, if You ask me, so if DD asks for a feature, I would rather ask "How do You want it to be implemented, what is the exspected workflow, how can we make it as easy and as transparent as possible ?", not "Why do You want that".
As soon as a customer has a feature request, and especially someone who is very professional, he probably knows WHY he asks for that, and to ask him "Why do You need it, its already in there, You just have to dig around" makes the customer look like dumb or lazy, and the programmer is the cool smartass who can prove the customers low level of intelligence by showing him a 50-step-workaround for an obviuosly simple task :/
Has no one ever wondered, why there is no way to do a unified stretching in modeler other than holding the mouse button and ctrl and try to drag diagonally ?
9 of 10 efforts result in a one axis move, instead of stretching both axis evenly.
Or why there is no way to scale textures (procedurals) in all three axis at the same time ?
Because, from a programmer point of view, You CAN do it by using a reference null or entering the same factor by hand in each field.

But for an artist, this is just "why, why, why ???"

Beeing a LightWave "instructor" here at my art school, I often get questions like this and can only say "Get accustomed to it, I don't know why they made it this way instead of the obviuos way", and yes, LW has some strange ways of letting me do simple things :/

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 11:41 am:

I agree that finding out the underlying reason or need for a feature is necessary. However, "Why do you need it?" could easily be phrased as "What problem would this feature solve?" To the customer, asking why you need something doesn't sound very supportive.

Second, I think it's a very good question why Newtek is asking these questions now. It takes quite a bit of time to implement those feature requests. Not comforting...but at least things are moving forward.

Also, I think the tuts, contests and things on the website are better than not doing anything at all. It just has to evolve into something more focused on professional material. Something that really makes a good headline and doesn't make you yawn.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (81.49.119.120) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 12:53 pm:

Information for you Arnie,

Bill Buxton about Design:
http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=8

Interview with Softimage's Michael Isner:
http://www.xsibase.com/articles.php?detail=15
"
Sure other companies will try to write feature lists with similar items, but that's not the point. The point is the clarity of the design process."

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 02:49 pm:

The interesting thing about the Newtek discussions with major studios is not whether programmers asked "why do you need this feature". The interesting part is the quotes that some of these studios are saying that they won't be dealing with Luxology.

So while some of the major studios have a complete understanding of the Newtek/Luxology issue and have had it explained to them, the poor old average user has to try to put the pieces of the jigsaw together from hearsay. There are still pieces of this jigsaw missing, and most users still don't have a good understanding of what's going on.

So if the studios said to Newtek that they won't deal with Luxology, can we assume that Newtek and Luxology are both going to release competing 3D applications?

While legal maneuvers must be still going on between the two companies, the users have been wandering around in the dark for the past year, wondering what's going on. How long can this continue?

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:06 pm:

How could people say they won't deal with a company without knowing what the product is? If it turns out to be a good product, then they'll deal with it, you can be sure of that.

It seems "some" people are interested in Luxology, including some major studios. And if Luxology is indeed working on their own software and it's a competitive or better product, surely others will too.

By Borhan Berthet (Labuzz) (81.49.119.120) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 03:42 pm:

"How could people say they won't deal with a company without knowing what the product is? If it turns out to be a good product, then they'll deal with it, you can be sure of that.
"
Absolutly + I am very happy to read this (as a 3d Artist) on the Luxo site "Also, congrats go to Bay Raitt, even though he isn't a LightWave user (he springs from the world of Mirai), we love his work."

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.129) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 05:04 pm:

I don't know, though. As I'm looking at the Lux site and current interview, I think it would be mighty cold and strange to develop a competing app when all they're doing is talking about and promoting Lightwave.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 05:51 pm:

Luxology seems to think it owns the code that is Lightwave. Maybe they think they'll develop it and launch it under a different name. I imagine that Newtek would be vigorously contesting the legality of this.

Remember Luxology's ridiculous "two mothers" statement, that they own the code and Newtek is merely the publisher. Those statements were vehemently rejected by Newtek, and Luxology withdrew any further mention of it.

What might be going on behind the scenes is another matter.

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.54) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 01:39 am:

hey larry,

it's interesting that you refer to the two founding fathers as the revered saints....

but, errmmmm, didn't they throw in with luxology?

what's up with that?

if they're not in a place where they can gainfully develop, isn't it their own damn faults?

jin

By Roger A. Cotton (Digilusionist) (204.210.49.126) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 02:32 am:

The question of when LW 8 will be coming out reminds me of a saying from a movie I saw a long time ago:

The ox is slow, but the earth is patient.

Then again, Sumatra was slow, and the earth moved on...

And now that I'm thinking about it, ignorance isn't bliss, either... So I guess I, too, am chomping at the bit for some news of LW's development.

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.21.29) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 08:35 am:

"A programmer surely understands instantly why I am using the "Curve Conform"-tool in the wrong way, but the fact remains: for ME its not working, and it is NTs job to make it work like I want, or I go elsewhere (simplified).

No "undo" ?
Clear and load again ! "

i cant speak for arnie... but i dont think that's a totally fair statement. many people or 'customers' feel that's it's almost as easy to make certain modifications to software like we change surface attributes in the surface editor. for example, right now, i'm developing an in-house script and even the most mundane things take such a long time. what i'm saying is that things we see in lw is less complex to what we actually dont see when we are using the program.

it is true that plugs like curve conform are half-baked plugs especially in concept where it must work in a useable professional context. but what i'm personally arguing about is the way _some_ people (and i could be accusing myself here) suggest "features" as if they were the programmers themselves. how about a famous (or infamous) example? to integrate or not to integrate. others speculate on speed hits. will it make the UI a mess? some suggest integrating so that it'll solve rigging problems. ask first what are the rigging problems? i think that was what arnie was trying to say. tell the problem, not the way the programmers are going to solve it.

there are other things, like making lw a duplicate of maya or max. that's absurd, not only from the point of view of useability, but of design. lw is totally different in design from maya and max - all are totally different. i hear people suggest 'opening up the architecture.' man, if it were at least a world's revolution away from being simple, i'd suggest that myself.

again, i've nothing against feature requests.. and i think they should listen to experienced guys, like those in DD for 'workflow' and design stuff. there is a limit to redesigning before you start hacking your whole foundation up.

i'm sure i'm gonna get juiced for this. soo.. bring it on!

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.21.29) on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 08:41 am:

"So while some of the major studios have a complete understanding of the Newtek/Luxology issue and have had it explained to them, the poor old average user has to try to put the pieces of the jigsaw together from hearsay. There are still pieces of this jigsaw missing, and most users still don't have a good understanding of what's going on."

but beam... hasnt chuck baker (or everyone else in the know) said enough about this matter?

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.215) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 12:52 am:

lernie,

actually, i would say that newtek has NOT said enough on the matter to sate all appetite for info on the matter... clearly!

BUT

they have said more than enough than they have to.

jin

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (62.104.211.64) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 04:00 am:

Lernie, here comes the juice ;)

I can not agree with You about that at all.
I know that even small things might take a long time, nobody would deny that, and designing a 3d application thats usable with so many different workflows and habits and ways of thinking is probably one of the most difficult design tasks.
The programmers did a fundamentally great job by keeping the interface uncluttered and text based, I can not rate this high enough.

BUT You should try to explain me this:

if simple things can take such a long time, wouldn't it be better to focus on those, because I can't really understand that the implementation of Hypervoxels, Motion Designer etc are *easier* than implementing multiple Undos or other workflow improvements.

Thats my point, amongst others.
You might say "Those examples are third party developments", sure, but that would prove my point: it leaves NT with the more basic implementations, which don't come the way some users exspect them to come.

This is a shark pool today, and I feel that contrary to SoftImage or A/W, NT folks are a bit stubborn and unlikely to really move into certain directions that other companies embraced for the sake of usability, feature set and workflow.

Integration for example, of Layout and modeler, seems rather an issue of two different copyright holders than programming problems.
Many "enhancements" we see are just patches to make work together what was not intended to, like skelegons or point level animation.
If the two were unified, these things would be more elegantly solved and more efficient, You could animate a lot of things You can't right now.
Mirroring in Layout like in modeler, for example.

I am not saying that LW should become a clone of Maya or such, but when I encounter a certain basic problem, and tell it to my MAX- and MAYA-friends, they start giggling.
When I talked about the CurveConform disaster, they really shook their heads.
When I say I can not change a cloning operation in modeler after its done, or change a lathe after its done, they can't understand why I stick with LW, because it seems so unflexible.
Sure they get great eyes when I show em those hypervoxels and the easy modeling (except for the examples I emntioned), and the cool selection tools and the weightmaps and stuff.
But at the end of the day, if a simple thing doesn't work since 4.0, You ask Yourself where the programmers spend their time.
You ask Yourself why You can't have the same display modes in Layout as in modeler (wireframe shade ???), You ask Yourself why there are no NURBS, no edges, no edge weights.
It took Cinema4D just one revision to get that.
Maybe the "complete rewrite" wasn't as substantial as they made it sound at NTs ?
Where is the "more frequent updates" that were mentioned after the "fundamental rewrite" ?
How comes that LightWave is not the top 3D package anymore ? It used to be exactly that, when MAYA and MAX were cumbersome and too expensive and SoftImage3D way out of range.
There was agreat chance for LightWave to become THE tool...unfortunately, it is hard to convince people of using it, if basic things are not implemented, things that are simply exspected today.

So Larry, if those guys at NT are really trying to make LW even better that XSI, then we will need a LOT of patience :/
I would rather have them make it as complete as C4D.

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (62.104.211.64) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 04:03 am:

BTW, You also ask Yourself why they have made a skelegon tree in modeler but not a way to really work with it, rename skelegons, see the skelegon that is selected in the tree also beeing selected in 3D-view etc.
Its like making Notepad without beeing able to print the text.

By Tom Winnicki (Tom_Winnicki) (65.93.64.200) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 01:38 pm:

Lernie, when I feature requested the super-master script architecture, it's only the *name* I gave to it. From my programming point of view, total integration would be the best way of achieving it. Of course this is only my speculation since I don't know the actual implementation of LightWave Layout and Modeler (which I speculate are not OO in design and that's why adding of new and revolutionary features takes so long). Additionally there is absolutely nothing wrong with some of us suggesting how things should be implemented. NT programmers don't have to take such an advice, especially from a non-programmer. But even such advices as well as "Why do you need this?" questions from the programmers which probably annoy the artists just as much artists' implementation ideas annoy the programmers are a good way to research the problem thoroughly and find the best possible solution.

As for this whole Lux thing... eh screw it.

By Digital Freak (Trilogy) (203.31.48.208) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

Emmanuel

I do agree with some of your points.
Many are well founded, however i think
you must remember that NT is much smaller than
Avid, Discreet or A/W and it's pockets are nowhere near as deep.

As for Undo's i think if we have lived without it for so many years, it's got to be a want more than a need.

I think you under estimate the difficulty in introducing Undo's into LW. I do not believe it's possible to do in LW, without a complete (and i mean very complete rebuild) As such it's not worth the time to do it. And as for integration, that's a whole debate in itself.

I do not ever want to see LW compressed and mangled into a singular application. Personally i like workflow. It wouldn't bother me if we had
Layout, Rigging, Modeler, Texture, FX... Modules of Lightwave, as long as they share similar interface and design, and share some connectivity like the HUB.

XSI is the only integrated package, that got it correct. And even then, for every upside you get from integration, comes a downside from not being segregated. There is no good without bad,
up without down, or grass which is greener.

You can argue that the good will defeat the bad, and you may be correct, but it depends on a whole lot of variables. LW is unique in it's approach and although this sometimes means a band-aid thinking approach, this can sometimes offer rewards of innovation and creativity.

Maya & XSI are void of some of the same problems that plague LW. This is because of great insight in their core design, (Both are newer than LW)
But both (mainly Maya)have just as many downsides, and problem area's too.

I do believe there are around 15 to 25 or so people, on these forums, who NT should be consulting with on a regular basis, to look at why and where we are going now and in the future.
Some are very talented at seeing the problems being faced, and solutions for the future.
joining them in a constructive forum to help aid in the future of LW, seems better than rehashing the past and talking about Luxology.

NT need the benefit of the doubt, and my loyalty will remain to see 7.5b and LW8. Beyond that will depend on how much they have been listening to the community.

There are some very simple things NT could still be doing to make everyones life easier.

I think that the LW community is just smart and passionate enough about it, to want LW to continue to improve and move forward.
and suprisingly these discussions show it well.

Use the power for good instead of evil...

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (202.57.90.146) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 11:33 pm:

"Lernie, when I feature requested the super-master script architecture, it's only the *name* I gave to it."

to tell you the truth, tom, i never found anything 'wrong' with a super-master script architecture, whether or not it was simply a name or the actual thing (that's why i said sorry. ). i think what you requested is something i'd like myself: it's something that, as script writers, or as programmers, to be able to access more stuff within lightwave. there's no "why do we need it?" question necessary, because it is obvious: because we want more control over lightwave.

but i still maintain that the way we can complain about the future of lw and how this ought to be that, but i think it's much more constructive to tell _what_ we want to happen instead of _how_ we want it to happen. of course, this shouldnt be construed as some sort of sweeping statement, because it isnt. workflow issues are often "how" question, rather than "what."

emmanuel: heh... i cant speak for newtek. i cant give an account for why they havent put a multiple undo in layout. needless to say, it is very hard to do (as pointed out by ernie w.). but this doesnt mean that it's off the list of reasonable features. what i'm merely suggesting is a level of feature suggestion that gets into the heart of the problem.

as with your claim that integration could solve animation problems: how would ANYONE know? i have a faint, but neverthless real, idea of how modeler and layout work in architecture. integrating them: how can be so certain that's feasible at this point in time (read "bugs")?

this integration bit is a good example of users vs. programmers. we want a single interface? (well even that is up for grabs: one want uncluttered, while other suggest it can be uncluttered through clever menu designs). we want animatable points? we want point-type-lattices? we want lots more, for sure. but we're only imagining integration is going to solve that, because the ones that have those certain features we like, say, maya, is just one unsegregated app. but we cant say that it's going to work the same for lw.

for me i dont know whether or not integration will yield a better result. all i want is to be able to tweak my morphs while the bone is bending it. i want a standardization of navigational tool behavior for both of modeler and layout (if there is no integeration). those are clear and solid requests. it's not "integrate the two so that we can have this and that." because really, you only have other apps to look at to reach to that conclusion. but again, they're not the same with lw, in terms of design or archi.

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (202.57.90.146) on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 11:36 pm:

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (62.104.212.85) on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 01:04 pm:

I for one think that it might be better to admit a mistake or let's say, a wrong path, instead of staying put and trying to patch things together.
This patchwork can only go so far until You find Yourself dead-end.
Maxon is a very small developer, as is Realsoft, and they both have integrated apps and lo and behold, stuff like Shave, AfterBurn, Pyrocluster etc are available for C4D.
I think that comparing NT always with Discreet or A/W is not fruitfull, that's two worlds colliding.
Maxon on the other hand has a similiar history as NewTek, a similiar product, a similiar price-range and probably a similiar target audience.

I just don't like the way NT is stubborn and seemingly proud of the "two environments and their great advantages"-story, while the bloody truth is that Mr Hastings and Mr Allen both are independant copyright holders for Modeler and Layout, which seems to be the one, real reason why there is no integration: copyright stuff.

The HUB is a patch par excellence, like skelegons, vertex paint, etc, etc, etc.
What I find really cool is the morph mixer, but the lack of true deformation, multiplying and modeling tools in layout is bitter for the year 2003.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 07:30 pm:

Emmanuel said:
"Mr Hastings and Mr Allen both are independant copyright holders for Modeler and Layout"

I assume you are referring to Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson. I can't see how that would be a reason to keep the applications separate, even if they were the copyright holders. They could agree to combine their rights in a unified application.

Besides, I think that Newtek claims copyright to both apps anyway. Also, there's a lot of people on these forums who prefer the workflow of separate modeling and rendering applications.

I actually have no loyalty to any developer, company or guru programmer. How can I? I don't know any of them personally. My loyalty is for the application. I don't care who is developing Lightwave, as long as cool new updates to keep coming out. Right now, it's been a long time between drinks.

By Jeff Dillon (Rotabox) (81.86.64.65) on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 05:20 pm:

Just reading 3D World mag in the UK and under a feature about the major 3D apps,for LW, the opening statement reads

"With development now split between Newtek and Luxology, question marks inevitably hang over Lightwave's future direction."

Whatever the situation between Newtek and Luxology, I was very angry to see that kind of bad publicity in a major 3D mag! That is a sure way to turn newcomers away from using LW.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 06:12 pm:

So what does this mean? Two companies undertaking separate development programs?

Does this mean that there is a split in the evolution of Lightwave? Will it divide into two separate applications? In this scenario, the precious user-base would also be split.

Or is the other scenario true? Are Newtek and Luxology separately developing their 3D apps, but one will be knocked out by a court case?

The silence from Luxology, and the restrained and cautious comments from Newtek suggest there are legal issues going on behind the scenes. What concerns me about legal issues is that they usually take a long time to resolve.

I am a Lightwave fan. I love the application, and recommend it to others. I just want to know what's going on. I'd love someone who is "in the know" to fill in the missing pieces to this puzzle. I think users have a right to know. Knowledge of the facts is the best way to end the speculation.

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.171.151.75) on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 11:55 pm:

"Does this mean that there is a split in the evolution of Lightwave? Will it divide into two separate applications? In this scenario, the precious user-base would also be split."

Well, Modeler and Layout are two separate applications right now. We accept them as a single product because they work well together and they come in the same box. But I guess they could be sold separately. And then, if you accept that, the separate boxes could have different company names on them.

If Luxology developed a product that was sort of like a "Brazil" for Layout, that could work. Even Adobe's Photoshop shares a significant user base with LightWave because Photoshop can come in handy with LightWave. So I think the precious user-base wouldn't necessarily be split. At least, not a lot. I guess prices of the separate products might have something to do with it.

By william greenlee (Billyboy) (12.218.128.69) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:19 am:

Oh god,my stomach is turning.........

I need no more problems.........

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 04:17 am:

Nah... that's not what I was trying to ask. Maybe I should have rephrased it. My question was regarding how Newtek and Luxology are managing the split. By "separate applications" I wondered whether Newtek is developing one thing and Luxology another thing.

I never wanted to infer that Lightwave and Modeler would be sold as separate applications. I don't think that would happen.

Billyboy: You wrote a post about a year ago, stating as a matter of fact that the current row started over a particular plug-in. It was one of the first posts on the first Luxology thread. Now you sound like you're not so sure.

By Will Silver (Lw_Will) (66.27.96.238) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 09:51 am:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

Will

ps. "Whew!"

By Matt Clary (Mattclary) (208.255.196.102) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 02:57 pm:

I just have ONE question! Who the heck is paying the freakin light bill?! They "employ" a lot of people for a company that has no (discernable) product!

By Timothy J Alt (Groodwanderer) (129.101.4.119) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 03:46 pm:

holy crap that took me forever to read. I had no idea all of this was going on. I am new to lightwave and love the product. I appreciate the tutorials and all that. However i would have to agree that Lightwave needs to braig a bit more about its accomplishments. I think users like to know that the product that they are comfortable with, and enjoy using, is doing well in the world out there. Without beefing up its profile Lightwave isn't inspiring much confedence in its users.

By Dustin D'Amour (Wizcraker) (68.99.218.128) on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 08:12 pm:

I've been holding off on posting cause I did not want to get sucked into the never ending Topic. But I can not hold out any longer. So just a few words.

There is a time when companies do not have to disclose any facts about what is going on with their products, especially if it is privately owned. But this is not one of those times, if Newtek is haveing problems with Luxology then tell us. I believe the majority of users on this forum will understand if Newtek and Luxology are in Litigation are unable to talk about what is going on. If this is the case then in due time when everything is over, all court records will be on public record and someone will find out, that is if they are really motivated. As Users we should be inclined to know how the development of the product is going. Even if Newtek releases a press release saying something like that the development is going good. It assures the Users and the media that something actually is really going on and to simply bury the bad publicity that their product is getting.

Every company that wants to compete in any industry leaks some type of information during development to wet the appetite of their customers and competitors. These companies range from small to large, and more times than not the small guys out perform the larger ones. Why? Maybe they are over zealous, or maybe they want to get ahead in their targeted industry. Hmmm...get ahead. What does that mean? Do they have this new device or feature that will revolutionize their product and give it something that no other company can provide? Most likely. They want a larger User base, which gives a larger return, which gives them the much needed money to expand and better market their products. The company expands by hiring one or two more workers to help them speed up the development in order to get their product out to their loyal Users and future customers in a shorter amount of time.

Example:

Honda Motor Co, Inc., is the largest car manufacture [in profit and market share] in the United States. Why? Easy, Honda over the years has perfected the development process of taking a design into concept and then to final mass production in 14 months. They have taken a large percentage of market share away from GM, the second largest car manufacture [in profit and market share] in the US. In return GM has shortend their developement period to 16 months in order to compete. It is not the exact develop time as Honda's but GM has developed a way to reduce cost in the cycle in order to get their product out to the customers quicker.

In the above example, Honda Motor Co, Inc., is a small company in size compared to GM, yet they have the majority market share. In the 3D industry it is just as competive. We see software such as Hash's Animation Master which sales for a few hundred dollars and is more geared to Character Animation. There are updates all the time and compares to the more expensive Maya. It may not have the majority market share, but it is defently cutting in a deep groove. Customers ask for features and improvments for workflow and Hash delivers.

Unfortuantly we do not see this with Lightwave 3D. It appears that Newtek is more focused on the VT2. They have just released recently the 7th FREE Update for Video Toaster 2. Granted 7.5 had some major bug fixes and features, but there are still bugs floating around causing problems. Users, your paying customers have asked on these forums and elsewhere for features to improve workflow, yet Newtek fails to deliver.

It kind of sad to see a $30 program called MilkShape 3D have better import/export support in file formats than Lightwave. It can support 3ds .asc, .3ds, .lwo [5.0 and 6.5+], .obj, .dxf, DirectX, .xsi, .md2, .md3, .smd, .psk [unreal skeltal engine] and about 20 other model formats for games. I now use this program to translate to formats that Lightwave can not do, but it is a hassle, as Lightwave should at least have these major formats listed above as a standard import/export feature set. Newtek said something about a Gametek version of Lightwave a long while ago. Well guess what, if Newtek adds one good feature that we can use it should be support for the same formats 30+ that Milkshape 3D has which is every major game. Lightwave would be the ultimate gameing Modeling [nice to see support in Layout as well so we could animate the characters to save in the game files] package in the world [It is easier to use than Milkshape or Max], plus User base would go up which is always a good thing.

Unfortuantly we will most likely never see this happen. Why? That is the most easy question, Newtek does not deliver [for Lightwave]. It is that simple. Sad but true.

I like Lightwave 3D and my company has been using it since 5.0. We did see excellent feature set and workflow improvements when 6.0 was released, but Lightwave has been degrading slowly. In time we have seen the competing products deliver what is now standard in the other packages yet Lightwave does not include them. The lack of development seems to not improve the features for better workflow that could be easly added through those magical updates that we never see. It seems like we get stupid question like what we heard with Digital Domain up above. For example, Like we want this feature to improve workflow. Why do you want that? umm, to Improve workflow. What would you use it for? None of your Dam(n) business. My company and many others is not a large effects house such as Digital Domain and we usually get overlooked because of that. When we ask for for a feature [and explain it in terms the programmers could understand] that would improve workflow for our business and most likely others, our voices are never heard.

The fact is the whole Newtek/Luxology thing is irrelevant. The majority of the people that make up Luxology looks to be the ones that was responsible for Lightwave 3D. What they did with the vision of Lightwave reflects badly on Newtek. But Newtek needs to get over it and start working on Lightwave development to the fullest. What would help Newtek out is to release a small update next week next month, like fixed some bugs, or one or two new features that actually work like they are suppose to. By takeing a page out of a certain companies business practices [if you have read my posts lately you probably know who, or you can probably guess] they may be a shark at times but they do know how to gain the attention of Users. This release though small would gain the respect of the Users again and give them the assurance that something is around the corner [whenever that might be] that will improve the 3D industry.

Looks like my few words have turned into another article. I'll leave and let you ponder these words.

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.128.184.203) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 02:36 am:

Beamtracer,

My question was regarding how Newtek and Luxology are managing the split. By "separate applications" I wondered whether Newtek is developing one thing and Luxology another thing.

OK, now I think I see what you were saying. I really don't think NewTek and Luxology are "managing the split." At least, not in the sense of mutual cooperation and coordination. I wish that were the case. But so far I haven't seen or heard anything to convince me that something like that is the case.

But I don't really understand what happened or what is happening. I feel sort of in suspense, and apprehensive about how the Luxology/Newtek story will play out. I am concerned for the welfare of both parties. Kids don't like it when their parents fight, and I feel sort of like that.

If NewTek and Luxology had "stayed together" I think we probably would have already had LightWave 8 for several months now, and that LW8 would have a lot of cool new stuff, and now we would be talking about new things we would like to see in LightWave 9.

But NewTek and Luxology did not "stay together" and we are on some kind of different timeline as a result of that. I still want to be optimistic for the LightWave community. I think it is possible for Luxology to develop and market a new 3D product that will work in conjunction with LightWave 3D rather than in direct competition with it. But I doubt that NewTek and Luxology are jointly managing and coordinating this new product, even though I wish they were.

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.92) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 03:25 am:

hiya dustin,

i understand your desire/need for game exporters but i don't think it's fair to criticize newtek for not developing in this area.

to be fair, none of the other major 3d applications provide robust export options out of the box. hell, lw is more encyclopedic than maya is!

if other apps end up having more game exporters available, it's because the developers of the game used the app and just released the tool to the public. if they didn't use lw, we're out of luck.

also, it would be unrealistic and unreasonable to have a newtek developer just sitting around fielding the latest games and writing exporters for all popular ones.

this is well beyond newtek's (indeed any 3d app's) purview and they are not lacking by not providing these kinds of tools.

milkshape 3d exists for the purpose of serving the game mod community, doesn't have a renderer or other more complex software issues to worry about and is run by one guy who knows his code inside out.

is it any surprise MS3d has such a robust export facility?

i've said it before, i'll say it again - if you need to export stuff in/out of games, just get ms3d and use it in conjunction with lw!

really, that's the best possible way to go whether you're using lw, max, maya or what have you.

jin

p.s. my only gripe is that when gmax and mayaple came out to provide mod tools, i thought it would have been prudent for lw to do some kind of cross promo deal with ms3d as a counter! now that would have been smart if it could have been pulled off.

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.128.184.203) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 04:16 am:

Dustin,

What would help Newtek out is to release a small update next week or next month, that fixed some bugs, or [added] one or two new features that actually work like they are supposed to.

I agree. Whole heartedly. And some kind of update for Inspire 3D is also long overdue. But NewTek did manage to release LW7.5. And you have to take into account that a lot of their experienced programmers went over to Luxology. That had to have slowed down the LightWave 8 development a lot. Programmers aren't like brick layers. You can't just go out and hire a bunch of new ones and have them start working productively on the first day. There is a lot of learning curve involved.

By Juan J. Gonzalez (Juanjgon) (80.58.7.235) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 06:39 am:

I think that newtek must say anything about all topics covered in this thread ... rumors about future of LW comes everywhere, and the only people who can stop it is NT with a official press release about actual situation and future of LW development. LW comunity deserves an explanation about future of his loved application.

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

By william greenlee (Billyboy) (12.218.128.69) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 08:32 am:

I dont think thats going to happen...remeber the 7.5 release?
Everyone was clueless up to the last minute...

By Scott Lange (Castius) (208.58.117.41) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 11:26 am:

I love reading this topic. Only because it's mostly funny that everyone is so worried and i am not. I can't stand the Newtek bashing anymore though.
This is the third thead on the topic and chuck has made a few statemants in the past and I'm sure he gave an much info as he could. Chuck has also made other comments in other places of the internet That show that yes things have changed in regards to company structure and employes, But things are business as usual.

So someone please tell me what the big deal is. They are a independant Software company that is in a very competative industry. They has had problems with making anouncment and i undertstand that it can be more difficult for them to tell us what is going on. Plain and simple there has been changes at Newtek, they have been around for how many years. So you think this has not happened before? Video toaster is doing well, Aura is doign well, Lightwave is doing ok but is going through some growing pains. I think every since the rewrite of Lightwave 6 they have tryed to give people some of the features they wanted either buy taking third party plugins and adding them or making things better. Some intergreated into lightwave properly, some kind of got slaped into it. I think the state of layout clearly shows why they are restruching. There is a feeling that none talked to each other when they made features. For example the Selection list like the lookat pulldown is very nice with colors icons and show hierarchy in a clearly understood manner. Then you open the new constraints pull down and you get blaa little arrows for hierarchy if i ever have to use that on a big scene I would go crazy. So for me I see all this mess as a good thing it means newtek understands the software they are selling and they want to give there user the best product they can.

None of us know what they really did about it most of us wont, and never will. It's not that important. Chuck has stated that Newtek has control over LW noone else i have read chucks comments for a long time i'm inclided to belieave him over anyone else. Also There is plenty of information from other places that there has been continiued development and we will see an update some time in the future and most likey plenty of development into what lw 8 will be. Do you really think they would be working so hard at making contests, and huge new list of tutorials, and a new cunnection to Aura too software they didn't have control over.

As far as gametek here is an example of why they don't anounce anything till it's ready to ship. I couldn't be more disapointed that we never got to see it. My best guess it that they changed there minds, and should have proble have some kind of explination to that statement. I'm guessing they felt that the price of lw was cheap enough for developers so they should just concentrait on adding features to lw that supported developers more. Adding game inport/export is up to the third party developers they just need to keep adding better features to make it easyer and more powerfull so more company use lw and we will see more and more avalable to everyone.

I know this convertion will continue but try to put alittle more thought into the people who are hard at work at Newtek That are proble reading this and are dieing to tell use whats in store for us but can't.

By stephen gilbert (Cresshead) (213.104.180.5) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 03:21 pm:

lightwav's cool...it makes pretty pictures...
even if lightwave ended at 7.5..it's still cool and can still make pretty pictures and features films right out the box for £995...no need for an extra renderer or masses of plugins plus it can hold huge scenes [try that with max...] you can run it on a laptop and it doesn't "demand" a huge spec'd pc or o/s...the renderer is up alongside renderman...unlimited render nodes..hair built in..caustics..radiosity...add that ACS4 character rigger and your on your way...

you chap getting my drift...grass still so green on the other side?....i use/teach 3dsmax & character studio but bought lightwave 'cos it has that "coolness"....

chill people!

steve g

www.cresshead.com

By Hawick Inkster (Lord) (210.86.95.231) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 03:37 pm:

I could be wrong, but I do recall something even semi oficial that said that while lightwave 7 or 7.5 was being developed a whole new lightwave (8) was in the works and that there were essentially two development teams, one working on 7/7.5 and one working on 8, and that 8 was supposed to be a huge leap from previous releases, anyone else remember such a comment or was I simply sleep deprived at the time.

H

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.210) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 04:03 pm:

Hm, that's kinda what this whole conversation is about. That "semi official" statement was made by Brad Peebler of Luxology. Evidently, there are no two teams working on LW. Just one, and that's Newtek. We don't know what exactly Luxology is or what it's working on. Some say they're working on a whole different 3d app. If they are, then I don't know why they are promoting LW so much on their site.
If they're developing their own app, they should really be building hype on their own project. If they were actually developing something else that competes with LW, why promote LW? That just makes no sense to me. So I don't see how they could introduce an app and hope people will buy it right off the bat without a good amount of hype already behind it. Maybe 3-6 months of promotion? Even if it was 2 times better than LW, it still would take some time for users to feel comfortable in buying an entirely new app without some security in knowing what it is, the history of the company and the quality of customer support. I think it's a big risk for Lux if that's what they want to do.

It's all pretty crazy, basically. The speculation, that is.

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.156.153.227) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 05:47 pm:

Adam,

Well said.

-- Burton --

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.191.102) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 09:12 pm:

Ok kids lets review.
Chuck as stated:
1. "NewTek holds all rights to LightWave 3D and any derivative products and is the sole developer of same."
2. "NewTek's development of LightWave 3D is active and in progress."
3. "NewTek does in fact have direct contractual relationships with Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson for continued assistance in the development of LightWave 3D, those contacts remain in place and development is, in fact, ongoing."
4. "Development is strictly under NewTek's direction and control. No other company is authorized to develop LightWave or develop derivative products, and NewTek has no intention of so authorizing."
5. "There is no relationship between NewTek and Luxology, and NewTek does not intend to have one."
On top of all this Newtek has been visiting studios to show that Newtek DOES support Lightwave, IS committed to DEVELOPING Lightwave, IS interested in feedback and bug reports to IMPROVE Lightwave. This says to me that Newtek is committed to keeping Lightwave competitive with other high end applications and not in dumbing it down for the "masses". What is good for studio production certainly wont hurt individual end users.
I dont understand what more Newtek can say?
Newtek has been CRYSTAL clear about their position and their intentions. There is no descrepancy between saying that they have NO relationship with Luxology (a COMPANY) but DO have a CONTRACTUAL relationships with Alan and Stuart that apparently are CURRENT and CONTINUING and development IS ONGOING.
Newtek has NEVER backed away from these statements while Luxology has backed away from theirs. I have yet to see Alan, Stuart, Brad or any officer or employee of Luxology refute any of the above statements from Newtek. Luxologys behavior has proven to me that Newtek is indeed making true and correct statements.
Again, what else is Newtek supposed to say beyond these statements? They have never revealed company secrets in the past as to what exactly will be in the next version of Lightwave. They have never aired their laundry nor are they obligated to(dont know of many companies that do either)> Why should that change now? LW7.5 hasnt been out THAT long. Im STILL trying to figure a lot of things out in it. Lightwave hasnt suddenly become useless. Its still the best bargain out their IMO. Im willing to let Newtek do their thing and do it right. Im confident that Newtek is very aware of what needs to be done to make LW8 a valueable tool for us and will do their best to make it so.

By william greenlee (Billyboy) (12.218.128.69) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 09:27 pm:

Very well said Larry.

Lightwave has exploded into a very intresting 3D application,both affordable and powerful at the same time.
I think this really does go to show that the community is very worried about its "baby" and we must belive that Newtek AND all involved are also just as worried and cautious about Lightwaves future.
I guess we will have to settle with that thought at least.

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.57) on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 11:21 pm:

hey larry,

at face value, all that stuff sounds really good and really clear. i think it's the 'reading between the lines' that makes this the fiasco that everybody seems to be concerned that it is.

(and i only come in with this stuff when there's an argument that everything is hunky dori....)

problem comes when we consider the original stated purpose of luxology and the fact the fergie and hastings jumped ship to join.

yes, the company has flipped on their position but clearly, they were setting up for something that would certainly drive a wedge betwixt ALL members of the parties concerned... eh?

dontcha think?

and it's the whole litigation part that probably has played a part since that's got people concerned.

i can expand on my theory but it could be wrong and regardless it wouldn't do any good.

my only point here is that i'm sure newtek is doing everything it can to get this party started (as the kids are fond of saying) but to think that everything is just great is pure fantasy.

jin

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.140.186) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 01:39 am:

Most of the public issues it seems, stems from everyone trying to read between the lines. There is a lot of conjecture but in the end we only have what Newtek has publically and very clearly stated to go on because nobody in a position to dispute it, has.
For some reason some people just DONT want to accept what Newtek has said. I dont understand why. Yes we can say "but so and so said" or "what about" or "how come" which end the end is completely meaningless and useless and why? Again Ill say it again...Newtek has been CRYSTAL CLEAR through all of this. I have not heard ANYONE directly involved dispute any of Newteks statements even though they have had ample opportunity to do so.
It seems everyone is so busy arguing and speculating that they have missed the fact that Newtek HAS, in the middle of this screaming mob, been perfectly open and honest about Lightwaves situtation, their relationship with Alan and Stuart, their non relationship with Lux and ongoing Lighwave development. Thats good enough for me because I have no reason not to.

By Timothy J Alt (Groodwanderer) (134.121.19.17) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 01:52 am:

You know what? It is good to know that everyone is so committed to this little app. I for one am not to worried, there is no point for me to lose any sleep over the matter since it won't help in the end anyway. Business is business and will always be business, no amount of ranting or raving is going to change that. I for one can sit it out, I still have plenty to learn and LW is a great app to do just that. If there is something drastically wrong, which i don't believe there is, then a whole lot of speculation and worry doesn't help the situtation, it just puts everyone on edge. And Jin, when is anything "just great" thats life, anything and everything that can or could go wrong WILL.

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.57) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 02:33 am:

well,

i think a certain amount of reading between the lines is absolutely required by the situation, don't you?

1) luxology breaks off to take over dev, guess what two guys are listed among them.

2) whoa there! newtek asserts ownership and asserts contractual claims on said two guys.

see, reading between item 1 and item 2 is very very very NATURAL!

and then speculating on what the current dev situation must be like considering item 1.5. logically follows.

come on. we're not dumb people here. and asserting that the very carefully worded p.r. statements encompasses the entire truth of the situation doesn't make it so.

i've no doubt that lw will continue on and development will indeed progress. i'm no doomsayer.

again, i only jump in with my thoughts on this subject when the argument is made that everything is going swimmingly and there is not aftermath to this whole luxodebacle.

that just insults my, and everyone's intelligence.

jin

By Juan J. Gonzalez (Juanjgon) (80.32.172.53) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 03:09 am:

This becomes a incredible long list of speculations without any fundaments. We must return to work, and trust Newtek and his development staff, surely that we will have good news soon. I supouse that if newtek dont say anything concrete it has its reasons, and perhaps surprise is around the corner.

LW is a great package today, for me is perfect for my work. I am not in agreement with newtek marketing strategies ... but his products, his price range and his support to comunity are good today, and it is so important.

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

By Szabolcs Matefy (J3st3r) (213.197.72.174) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 03:31 am:

I don`t know what`s behind the scenes. But it looks, that I`m nnot the only one thinking that Lightwave`s future is very unclear. Many studio drops LW for the favor of Maya XSI or even 3DSMAX, because of LW uncleared future.
All the declarations what Chuck made, does mean nothing to me. No information. Just a fact.
Looking at the about box of LW the copyright owners are Stuart Ferguson and Allen Hastings.

To me (and many other company) it looks like, that NT has a new team working on understanding the present LW code. That means no new version for at least one year. I think NT`s contract with Stuart and Allen is about a bugfix until the new LW hasn`t been released...

What I don`t understand, that NT why don`t give information to it`s users. It can be a company politic, but I think, that if a company is living from their customers, and the customers are full of doubts, they should inform their customers about the development of their products. Look realistic. If I start a company, I`d like to base my company on a software, which has clear future, and I have constant informations about it.
I have lost my trust in LW, although I do believe that it`s the best application around.

Jester

By Berislav Kovacic (Mav3rick) (213.149.39.133) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 03:57 am:

it is funny when newtek says lw develop is in progress and we still wait 7.5b update ... seems like noone can compile that 7.5b or they wait siggraph to sell us 7.5b like lw 8... i wonder where is all that programing power newtek have/had...

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (202.57.88.217) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 04:32 am:

"and asserting that the very carefully worded p.r. statements encompasses the entire truth of the situation doesn't make it so."

well, jin, if i may beg your pardone, asserting it any other way will probably make a bigger target for even more speculation.

there's a thing i've learned just by reading these sort of discussions. indeed people not only read between the lines, but actually do fillers.

i have faith that people will can read between the lines of the "entire truth". it's really never enough. how about we send an this article to the National Enquirer, let it all hang out. maybe then we can get the whole picture.

"What I don`t understand, that NT why don`t give information to it`s users."

i can understand. you get a thread like this raised to nth power. if you cant handle the official statements, you might not be capable of handling the 'behind the scenes' however good or bad they may be.

not in the know,
lernie.

By Alan Kott (Fallen) (63.207.239.200) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 04:39 am:

I think all this speculation is an angst ridden waste of everyone's time. You can't change anything that will happen. Newtek has made every effort to be forthcoming to your concerns. Nothing in this fricken world lasts forever. I do not mean to say that there is any evident peril in Newtek's future, but, get a grip. You have already received what you are owed by Newtek! All this 'National Enquirer' conspiracy theory crap is absolutely counterproductive. Even if you have 'some' insider knowledge, even if your concerns are for the community at large, this thread is doing nothing but taking time and energy from those that are trying to make LightWave a better product. Please realise that every moment that they have to spend worrying about your worries is taking them away from achieving what you all want!

By Dustin D'Amour (Wizcraker) (68.99.218.128) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 08:17 am:

I think this never ending thread is a great place to vent our theories. What makes the National Enquirer so successful is that it has off the wall articles that are entirely speculation. People buy it for entertainment, Lightwave is used to make entertainment, and so we read and post the speculative theories for entertainment. I do not think it is counter-productive to keep it going either, we all need a stress reliever somehow. Plus you got to think that if the people [besides Chuck Baker] at Newtek are reading this they would have to be laughing as some of the stuff gets pretty far fetched. Even my post above was a long rant of nothing [except for the business stuff IMO].

By Andrew Morgan (Aegisprime) (194.117.133.118) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:03 am:

Szabolcs: You're half right - Modeler may be Stuart's but Layout is copyright NewTek...

Copyrights

Maybe we'll get integrated modelling in LW8 after all eh?

By Andrew Morgan (Aegisprime) (194.117.133.118) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:13 am:

On a separate note, it's weird but Modeler somehow seems less integrated now than it did in the Amiga days... maybe it's because sometimes I have to hit the "Modeler" button 3 or 4 times before it switches. Anyone here remember the nifty crossfade Amiga LightWave used to do between Layout and Modeler? And of course the amazing (for the time) backface culled moving preview? Those were the days ;-)

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.153.69.91) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:09 am:

Dustin,

"I think this never ending thread is a great place to vent our theories..."

I wish I had said that. Once again I find myself in complete agreement with your message.

-- Burton --

By Szabolcs Matefy (J3st3r) (213.197.73.41) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 11:51 am:

It looks like that when we talk about Lightwave it covers only "Layout", while modeler is a separate application both technically, and by copyright.

I`m back to work, but I maintain my doubt about Lightwave`s future.

Jester

By Doran Jones (Dajones) (216.169.198.9) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

I'm sorry I look at full integration at a step backward..

By Jean Marc Rodrigue (Jmarc) (66.48.17.253) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:36 pm:

Why, Doran?

JM

By jin choung (Jin) (67.116.166.130) on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 12:38 pm:

howdy all,

actually, i disagree about the 'more information resulting in MORE gossip'.

it's just that the public facts that we've seen played out on the web and the given statements are just enough to tantalize and hint at a spectacular train wreck of a backstory. not addressing the fiasco makes the curiousity that much more intense.

but i do not doubt the future of lw. not at all. neither am i worried about the situation. but you gotta admit that it's provocative stuff.

and i don't disagree that this is none of our business.

and i'm perfectly willing to just wait and see what happens.

i just jump in with my two when i see the apparent disinformation that everthing's hunki dori. from where i stand, that just can't be the case and i'm just chiming that in for accuracy sake.

jin

By stephen gilbert (Cresshead) (62.254.0.4) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 01:33 pm:

my personal wish for lw8 regarding intergation of modeller and layout would be to have one unified interface with the advantages of modellers multiple undos etc but have a dropdown "mode" for things such as modelling,animating,fx and rendering such as you find in maya..this would keep rescourses down more then say the bloatware feel of 3ds max which tried to do everything at the same time and falls short on large projects sometimes because of that..

I fully expect to upgrade to the next lightwave when it arrives...i've held off max 5 [i have max 4] as i'm either going to move over to lightwave fulltime sometime soon or add maya 5 depending on what it has..my other option is to see what happens with max and the next release...5.5? as
max 5 feels so sluggish.

steve g

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.178.140.234) on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:17 pm:

There is a difference between "disinformation" and "need to know" information. Disinformation implies lying.Since nobody has bellied up and pointed out any particular piece of disinformation or lie as to what Chuck has stated then we must assume its true. NOT airing company laundry for all to see is also not disinformation. What Chuck has posted over and over has hit the key points that anyone NEEDS to know. I dont know of ANY company who does or would do it any different. "hunki dori" is also a relative term. Is EVERYTHING hunki dori at Newtek, A/W, Discreet, Avid, Maxon etc etc? I doubt it.
Is it hunki dori ENOUGH that Newtek owns Lightwave, development is ongoing, Newtek has contracts with Alan and Stuart that are in place and they are working on it, Lightwave 8 will happen in the near future? I think so and thats all I think anyone NEEDS to know. Im content to wait and not worry overly much about it.

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (210.14.21.98) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 12:43 am:

"People buy it for entertainment, Lightwave is used to make entertainment, and so we read and post the speculative theories for entertainment."

[TUVOK] that is not very logical [/TUVOK]

seriously: what in the world do you mean? isnt this a professional, or striving for professionalism, kind of forum? national enquirer is gossip-mongering. i'm not necessarily, and equivocally lumping this thread with national enquirer: there is still hope. but to justify such gossiping and say that we OUGHT to is just unprofessional, imo. tabloids' business is to speculate and cause some ruckus. our business is create stuff with lw and, if you have good sense, promote it. if you want to speculate on CG news, go and get a column over at hash's minutes or something.

"I do not think it is counter-productive to keep it going either, we all need a stress reliever somehow"

if that's your primary reason then that's even more hurtful for lightwave. find another stress reliever.

By Will Silver (Lw_Will) (66.27.96.238) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:07 am:

Re: This Thread

See previous post.

Will

"Welcome welcome my friend,
To the Thread that Never Ends."

By jin choung (Jin) (63.28.231.68) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:30 am:

again larry,

i don't disagree that this is none of our business and that any DEMANDS for more information has no place. but as i argued to lernie, this lack of information tends to breed rumor mongering....

the disinformation that i'm talking about is the assertion that this luxology debacle has left NO NEGATIVE IMPACT on lw development.

i'm not saying that it is a permanent and irreversible negative impact either. but i'm saying that there is indeed some ugliness here.

and constantly bringing up stu's and fergie's CONTRACTUAL L E G A L OBLIGATIONS sound exactly like a 'carefully worded' public statement that may hint at a really ugly little episode.

really, it doesn't take a rocket scientist... !

i'm saying let's just not say that it never happened and there is no fallout. because THAT is what insults my intelligence.

as for the imminence of LW8.... now that IS news that most of us are not privvy to.

are you?

any more news to share in that regard?

jin

By Szabolcs Matefy (J3st3r) (213.197.74.229) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 02:13 am:

Larry, I know, you something... ;-)

I wish, if I knew at least 10% of your knowledge about LW`s future...Maybe I would be more optimistic...

Jester

By Tom Winnicki (Tom_Winnicki) (65.93.70.52) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:11 am:

It's hard to stay away from this topic. To put some of your minds at ease consider that Bob Hood has posted LScript v2.6 release notes some time ago. He always posted release notes for the new version shortly (relatively speaking) before the next update to LW. I suppose this means we can expect the next version of LW in the near future (again relatively speaking). It's a rather agonizing wait but I'm sure most of you like me don't know the current LW inside out and still have lots to discover, so to pass the time let's all get back to work.

By Burton R. Ogden (Burton) (172.148.27.229) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 07:23 pm:

Tom,

"...so to pass the time let's all get back to work."

Novel idea. I suppose it is worth a try. [grin]

-- Burton --

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:08 pm:

When 2 companies (Newtek and Luxology) both make a claim to own the Lightwave code, one of them must be wrong. The fact that Newtek disputes the claim using legalspeak makes me assume that the issue will be resolved in court. How else could it be? I doubt that any of the companies that believe they are the rightful owners of Lightwave would willingly give it up to the other without a fight.

While the outcome would be bad for whichever company loses the battle, I don't think it would be bad for Lightwave users. From a user's point of view, I feel confident that the future of our 3D software is bright, and development will forge ahead.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (216.244.32.222) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:49 pm:

Jin said:
"constantly bringing up stu's and fergie's CONTRACTUAL L E G A L OBLIGATIONS sound exactly like a 'carefully worded' public statement that may hint at a really ugly little episode."
Chuck said:
"NewTek does in fact have direct contractual relationships with Allen Hastings and Stuart Ferguson for continued assistance in the development of LightWave 3D, those contacts remain in place and development is, in fact, ongoing."
I think you should look at Chucks response VERY carefully. The "contractual legal obligation" term is not what Chuck said, its what you said. He said "CONTINUED ASSISTANCE" and "REMAIN in place and DEVELOPMENT IS, in fact, ONGOING."
This sounds more like a mutual agreement to me rather then an OBLIGATION. How else can Chuck word it? Alan and Stuart have apparently always had contracts with Newtek to produce Lightwave in exchange for money. Putting the words LEGAL or OBLIGATION are pretty meaningless since everyone knows that by definition, contracts are legal and obligate both parties to abide by the terms. As I said, this has been the situation between Newtek for years. I dont see how Chuck stating the obvious could somehow be misconstrued as a "carefully worded statement" which in my mind denotes something sinistar.
The information Ive been privy to is the same information everyone has been privy to namely:

Newtek holds the right to Lightwave.
Lightwave is good.
Development ongoing.
Alan and Stuart working with Newtek
Lightwave 8 is being worked on
Bugs being fixed

Another thing I would point out is that owning a copyright to something and owning the rights to develop, market and so forth are not the same.

Beam,
So far as Ive seen Newtek is the only one of the two companies that has publically made a claim on Lightwave. Luxology has not publically refuted any of Newteks claims (which says a lot to me). Luxology has also seemed to do quite a bit of backpeddaling from many of its statements (which also says a lot to me).
Newtek is probably required by law to make the public statements it has made. I still dont get this whole fixation on the so called "legal speak". How else can they put it? Lets see...
1. "NewTek holds all rights to LightWave 3D and any derivative products and is the sole developer of same." should be changed to...
"We REALLY like lightwave, we've had it for SOoo long that we feel STRONGLY that its ours. We plan to hold onto it for a long LONG time. IF anyone tries to take it from us we will get VERY mad."
Take Chucks statements at face value. Hes not lying.

By chris golchert (Cgolchert) (208.188.26.240) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:11 pm:

I haven't read the whole htread yet... needed to responde quickly brfore I forgot...

> "why would you want that?" DDs response was "what bloody business is it of yours...were the customer and thats what we want"

Have the considered that the programmer might have a better solution if you can describe the problem intead of whining about some solution that might seem half-a$$ed? I know a few programmers that want to know everything about a problem for the BEST solution. Now keep in mind DD doesn't have the only copy of LW that exists. If they can create a solution that fixes DD's problem while solving others why is that worthy of a crack head-"what bloody business is it of yours"-response?

As for working on requests. I went to lunch with Allen one day, we asked for colored shadows. Within an hour of ordering our food I saw LW running on Allen's laptop rendering out colored shadows. (a 7.5 feature) The OGL overlay on the spots were also programmed in fromnt of me so I can't really say that they are ignoring feature requests.

By chris golchert (Cgolchert) (208.188.26.240) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:29 pm:

shouldn't type in the dark on this "natural" keyboard....

I've just seen way too many people whine about programmers not doing the exact thing they want before they even learn all the current features.

I've witnessed people scream (yes scream) at Brad about a feature that was in LW for at least ONE full number revision (6.0->7.0) Then it quickly turns into "oh, it is already in there"

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.210) on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:58 pm:

If you own the rights to a copyright, then that means you own everything, including the rights to develop, market and anything else you want to do with it. The only way someone else can have the rights to do such things is if the owner licenses those rights, usually under certain conditions and agreements.

Those rights can't be seperated from the owner. However, the owner can license those rights out, but that does not mean the licensee owns the copyright or even owns the rights to do whatever they want to do with it without consenting agreements. The owner and the licensee must have an agreement between them which grants certain rights to the licensee. Still, the owner ultimately has the power.

So, for example, if Stuart owns the copyright to the Modeler code, at some time he must have licensed certain rights to Newtek to market, develop or whatever. This would also explain the complication with integrating Modeler and Layout, because the code is owned by two different entities. Integration would mean the creation of a new product, so the copyrights to Modeler or Lightwave 3d (Layout) would not apply to that newly created thing.

Therefore, since it appears Newtek owns the copyright to Lightwave 3d and Stuart owns the copyright to Lightwave Modeler...and if there was any desire or disagreement with integrating the two to create a new product, there could obviously be a complication. Someone would have to give up the rights to one application OR there would have to be a CO-ownership of the new application. And who would want to give up the rights? Who would be willing to be co-owners?
This is an issue, for sure.

So when Newtek says they own the rights to Lightwave 3d, this is true. BUT, it does not appear Newtek owns the rights to Lightwave MODELER. As users, we just assume Lightwave 3d is BOTH apps, but this does not appear to be the real truth.

I'm not sure why Newtek got the copyright to Lightwave 3d and not Lightwave Modeler. But if they had good sense, they would have had an exclusive license agreement to market and develop Lightwave Modeler. This would conceivably make it impossible for Stuart to license ANY other company the rights to Modeler. However, he could transfer the ownership, say to Luxology. Again, the only way the owner forfeits the rights to sell, market or develop the product is when they sell or transfer the copyright.

Sure, Newtek has contractual agreements with Allen and Stuart. Yes, Newtek owns Lightwave 3d. But this does not mean Newtek owns Lightwave Modeler. And if Stuart transfered the copyright to Luxology, then Luxology would own the copyright to Modeler. Then it would not be accurate for Newtek to say that it does not, in some way, do business with Luxology...if any of those aggreements have to do with Stuart licensing rights to Newtek with regard to Modeler's copyright. For the copyrights would then be owned by Luxology. So obviously there would have to be an alteration to the agreements, if that is what happened.

Rights to copyright are very explicit. That's why it's much better when ONE entity ownes the rights to a product, so there are no complications later down the line. Much more advantages to license rights rather than sell intellectual property outright. You always have the power when you are the owner.

Hopefully, the issue of ownership is not an issue. But I can now see how it could be entirely possible for Luxology to be doing one thing and Newtek doing another. Luxology could actually be developing a new app based on the Modeler code, but they could not use the Lightwave 3d name or code, since Newtek owns that. Yeah...I can now see how the whole thing could get complicated.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:36 am:

It was Lightwave that Luxology made its claim for. That claim was made by Brad Peebler, and I don't remember any mention of Modeler. Newtek firmly disputed Luxology's claims, though statements from either side must be taken in the context that they are involved in a dispute and their statements will fall in line with their side of events.

Luxology has since gone quiet on the issue. I doubt if that means they've bowed out of the contest. More likely it means that they're treading lightly around a legal minefield. Maybe they had to stop claiming they owned "Lightave 3D" because "Lightwave 3D" is a registered trademark of Newtek's.

As I said earlier, if Luxology comes out with a product, they'll have to call it something other than Lightwave 3D.

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.210) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 01:57 am:

Most of the time the name Lightwave is meant to encapsulate both "Lightwave 3d" and "Lightwave Modeler." But in reality "Lightwave" is two seperate apps. We usually don't think of it that way since we use the two so interchangeably, but that's really the case. Especially since it appears two different entities own the two apps.

Yes, no one can claim "Lightwave 3d" or the Lightwave logo but Newtek. "Lightwave Modeler" may be a different story. It appears that way. I don't know.

I don't understand why Newtek holds the copyright to Lightwave 3d, but not Lightwave Modeler. Anyway, I hope everything's been worked out. Everyone's been talking about Allen and Stuart, but Lux has Mark Brown who did Motion Mixer and Gregory Duquesne who did Hypervoxels. What about all those other programmers? Are they under agreements to continue the development of their plug-ins that exist in Lightwave 3d? And IF Lux is making their own app, why the heck would they be promoting Lightwave 3d? Their marketing strategy is very peculiar to me at the moment.

One thing's for sure, Newtek has been consistant and straightforward with the literal language whereas Luxology has not. People from Newtek are saying that LW8 is in development, so that's cool. The big question is, will LW3D8 be the "revolutionary" Mecca Brad talked about? A nice, big upgrade that will solve many of LW's current issues and then some? Or will Lux's mystery solutions be the one to do that?

By Timothy M. (Cim) (152.163.207.74) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:55 am:

Simple: Luxology is developing the next-gen version of Lightwave (Mecca). Newtek just wants to keep this under wraps, because they're afraid it might tarnish their image as owners of Lightwave or something.

Think about it. All of Newteks programs (most anyway) are at Luxology. So, unless Newtek is programming Lightwave with the alias/wavefront programmers that lost their jobs (and didn't go to Discreet), then who's doing this programming?

Oh, well. I'll just continue waiting for the big day. Until then, I'll keep on chugging along with Lightwave and Maya. :-)

By Jeff H. (Pixelmonk) (64.32.196.143) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 09:38 pm:

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah..... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah... sounds like a bunch of whiney kids. The fact is when the people in the know feel it's time for a press release, they'll do so. When they feel it's time to announce the next version of LW, they'll do so. Wasting over a gig of server space for a thread that won't end, doesn't solve a damn thing except give the whiners something to whine about and the conspiracy theorists something to mull over while chewing on Tums. Just drop it.. this thread hasn't solved anything since it started over 6 months ago. Do you seriously thing yapping about it for another 6 months will produce any more results?

By Chris S. (Fez) (68.51.141.174) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 10:19 pm:

I have full faith in Newtek. Chuck and William have worked wonders for the Lightwave community...but I can't help but wonder why it is that Newtek can't keep talented programmers. The main programmer behind Project Messiah is an ex-Newtek employee. Now we have a long list of talent seemingly trying to defect to Luxology. This pattern of an apparent lack of loyalty to Newtek among Lightwave programmers is disturbing.

By policarpo (Policarpo) (66.25.138.182) on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:35 pm:

i don't think it's the lack of loyalty as much as it is the need to try and do more things of a personal nature.

ya know...go for the glory...be you're own creator. some do it rightly...while others do it badly.

the world needs more creators who make things easier to do in a way that brings honor to the profession and respects intellectual property.

i think there are enough talented developers out there to keep the industry moving forward and evolving...and i think NewTek is in as good a position as any of the competitors to remain competitive and on track for years of success...these little humps in the road hit everyone...

but you know what they always...that which does not kill you...only makes you stronger!

By robin konieczny (Robkoni) (81.6.237.119) on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 03:27 pm:

However.............

By Matthew Maxwell (Mmaxwell) (68.7.190.51) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:46 am:

I have one simple question for Larry. No, it's not "how do i fix 'splines don't cross' errors," either.

Just exactly who is developing Lightwave at this point? If you look at Luxology's founders and engineers page, it reads like a who's who of Lightwave. Hell, the only names that i didn't see there were Fori, Dan M., Lyle M. (who are all at PmG), Arnie Catechlin, Brian Hood and Ernie Wright (apologies to those whose names i mangled or incorrectly employed/didn't employ at NewTek).

-Matt, Netter Digital survivor...

By Dave Spamer (Daves) (64.57.97.42) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:39 pm:

If you look at the history behind Softimage 3D and XSI you will see that several different development teams have worked on the software.

With that in mind and seeing where XSI 3.0 is, I don't believe having a new development team at Newtek for Lightwave is a bad thing. It usually turns out that new people bring fresh new ideas and build a better product than their predecessors.

Dave

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

Once they learn the legacy code that they have been assigned.

By Mike Pauza (Mikepauza) (65.84.248.153) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:47 pm:

Lux might own the rights to develop and market modeler as they see fit? That's staggering.

By Beam Tracer (Beamtracer) (203.109.241.109) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 07:30 pm:

I wouldn't say that statement is entirely accurate.

I will refresh everyone's memories with what Luxology chief Brad Peebler originally said.

Keep in mind,

*This is from April 2002, originally posted on CGchannel.
*It is only a short extract of Peebler's original comments, for purposes of comment and review.
*Newtek strongly disagrees with all these comments from Brad Peebler. Newtek has publicly challenged and refuted these comments.

Brad Peebler (regarding Luxology):
The real benefit so far has been focus and shelter. What I mean by that is that everyone at Luxology is insanely dedicated to the 3D marketplace. We eat, breathe and sleep 3D. Luxology provides us with an environment in which we can live that dream. We do nothing but develop incredible tools for 3D artists.

The relationship between Luxology and NewTek is the same as it was when it was just Allen and Stuart. Allen and Stuart are the original creators of LightWave 3D, and have always been the key authors of the application. NewTek has been their publisher for over 10 years now. The formation of Luxology does not change that relationship. As we move on to the next generation of LightWave, Luxology will be the author and NewTek maintains the rights to be the publisher. Luxology is essentially an intellectual property holding company in that regard. Luxology also intends to assist NewTek in the marketing of LightWave and to help train LightWave users. LightWave users should be pleased as they now have TWO companies working to better their application. It's kind of like having two Moms! All the other programs only have one Mom. It's sad for them, really.

The shelter I referred to earlier is a financial shelter. Luxology has stable funding and therefore we are not subject to the day-to-day shifting of this volatile marketplace. We have all witnessed other companies trimming down offices and even cutting development resources as the 3D market begins to saturate. Prices are dropping, and companies are getting leaner and meaner. They are essentially trying to be LightWave! Low overhead, top quality technology, affordable price point, and volume sales to match; that is what we are all about. I've got bad news for them. It is easier for the little guys to grow to kill the big ones than for big companies to shrink down to a competitive scale. LightWave 3D is really ahead of the game in that respect. While other product groups are scaling down, the LightWave development team is larger than ever. In fact there are currently TWO LightWave dev teams. There is a team working on the current line of LightWave, based on the 7.0 product line, and another development team working on the next generation. Eventually the two teams will come together and everyone will be working on the next-gen app, but for now this setup allows us to provide users with service updates while we bang away at the future stuff. It's funny, I have heard that the news of Luxology made people nervous about the future of LightWave, when really, the future has never looked better. There are more people working on LightWave code today than there ever have been in the history of the product.

As far as relationships with competitors, I think everyone should open up and play nice. The LightWave formats have always been publicly available and free. Our SDK is free and online. Two years ago I opened dialog with the people at Alias because we had customers who wanted to model in LightWave, animate in Maya and render in LightWave. I suggested we work together to make that happen. Some very bright people at Alias agreed with me. "It's all about the users' needs." But as it progressed higher up the chain, it finally got cut off and the idea died. I suppose they were afraid of the Trojan horse effect. The funny thing is that what ended up happening is that those customers just went and developed their own pipeline to get data out of Maya and back to LightWave.

I'd like to add here that Luxology's use of the word "Lightwave" is a mistake, as both parties now agree that Lightwave is the sole trademark of Newtek. Newtek has since stated that it has no relationship with Luxology.

So while Luxology is working on something (and keeping a veil of secrecy over whatever they're currently doing) there is no chance that they will ever release any product under the name of Lightwave, contrary to what Brad originally said.

However, what Luxology is up to is open to speculation. The next paragraph may give a hint.

Brad Peebler:
I would love to see a smooth pipeline between future versions of LightWave and XSI. I think both apps have a fundamental commonality. The people that build the software have an intense passion for the market. LightWave and SoftImage both have a sort of "organic" feel to them. It's a natural art sensation when working in these apps. Another program with that same sensation is the character animation system for LightWave, Messiah. Artists develop all three of these programs.

I note that Luxology's website lists their relationship with the Project Messiah Group, among others.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.51.10) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 07:46 pm:

Jeff,
I agree. Despite whats discussed in here it really is business as usual for Newtek.
Chris,
I think Policarpo is on to something there...
Who was running the LW group at Newtek when Fori and Dan left? Who is surrounded by the same people at Lux as they were at Newtek? As far as lack of loyalty goes...I have found that people tend to surround themselves with others who are like they are.
Matt,
Weld the splines where they intersec....ooops!
According to Chuck Newtek is the only company authorized to develop and market Lightwave. According to Chuck Newtek still has contracts with Alan and Stuart to continue developing Lightwave. Where they do that exactly I dont know. Ive always understood that they did this from home and my guess is they probably still do. ;)

By Lernie D Ang (Faulknermano) (202.57.90.202) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:43 pm:

why do i get the feeling that my post right here is not going to be the last?

By -=KrAy-ZeE=- (Krayzee) (12.254.138.39) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:50 pm:

Because it's not.

By Timothy J Alt (Groodwanderer) (134.121.19.10) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:01 pm:

NOt even close to the last.

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.210) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:51 am:

Okay, so Newtek is developing Lightwave 3d. Great. Looking forward to the new version.

What I don't understand is why Stuart's name is on the copyright for Modeler and not Newtek's. Can someone help me understand why this is?

And, if Stuart owns the copyright to Modeler, what would happen if they wanted an integrated app, meaning, just ONE app? How could the copyright issues be resolved in that case? Who would own the copyright? Would it be a co-ownership? Also, I'm trying to understand what is not true about Brad's statement. What is wrong with saying Allen and Stuart are the authors, especially since Stuart ownes the copyright? For instance, if Newtek hired Allen and Stuart as employees, then everything would be owned by Newtek. Obviously Stuart's name is on the copyright and both Allen and Stuart seem to be contracted, not hired. Who knows what's written in that agreement? It could say anything. Not that it's any of anyone's business...it's just that if Newtek was truly the SOLE developer, then why is someone else's name on the copyright of their software? Doesn't jive or make sense to me.

In that case, being a publisher would make sense. Just as when the author of a book owns the copyright and the publisher markets and develops the actual book.

Bottom line is no one's ever really addressed these questions yet and I don't see why they shouldn't be. If everyone behind the scenes are working together then that's great. We will all laugh when we look back at these posts when LW8 comes out. But...is it at all possible for Stuart to take what he owns and develop something else AND for Allen and Stuart to do little bug fixes and development for LW8? I mean, are Allen, Stuart and Lux company doing some major, overhaul like development for LW8, or are they just fulfilling their obligations to the contract they sign? I'm asking because IF Lux is doing there own thing, it may not be a bad idea to wait and see what they come up with. But I really hope the people at Lux and Newtek are working together to bring us a fantastic 3d tool, just like Brad said.

By Larry Shultz "SplineGod" (Larrys) (209.179.51.10) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:14 am:

Owning the copyright is one thing. How you are contractually obligated is another. A copyright is simply a license to hunt others infringing on your code. Beyond that its all contractual agreements and obligations as to what and who can use that code. You can own the copyright but that has nothing to do with what agreements you have entered into beyond that.
Allen and Stuart are the authors of THEIR part of the code. You have to keep in mind that NEWTEK also paid OTHER programmers to put in things that Allen and Stuart did not write. Subpatches, Particles, Hypervoxels, Motion Mixer, Spreadsheet and other things were NOT written by Allen and Stuart and Im sure Newtek owns since they paid for it. How does one go about separating all that?
I think its FAR more complicated then saying simply who has a copyright.
Remember the Chuck said that Newtek has current, in place contracts with Allen and Stuart (who are honoring those contracts with current, ongoing development). Newtek also stated that they have NO relationship with Luxology nor intend to. It may seem like a trivial difference to us but I suspect at some level its a huge difference.
Allen and Stuart have ALWAYS been contractors.
Newtek being the sole developer is something that Im sure is spelled out contractually somewhere.
Also, as I said, NEWTEK paid both of them to write code, Newtek paid others to write code, Newtek paid to market that code. Lightwave was unheard of except for a small group of amiga users (as videoscape 3d and Modeler 3d) and both were pretty much unknown until their software was bundled in with the Video Toaster.
It sounds like Allen and Stuart are working along, business as usual.
I dont think there is a Newtek AND Lux working on anything together. Why? Because Newtek has repeatedly said so over and over that they have NO relationship with Lux nor intends to. Its always been Newtek and Alan/Stuart. Thats who appears to be working together on the next generation of Lightwave.
One thing you have to remember about the "Brad saids"...its all either been refuted by Newtek or withdrawn by Brad. The fact that, AFAIK, nothing that Newtek has stated publically has ever been refuted or addressed by anyone associated with Lux. That in itself says a great deal.

By riki (Suture) (203.109.249.132) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:32 am:

Mmmmm I'm sorry Larry, what you said sounds well and good, logical and probably pefectly normal, but frankly it's not very interesting. Is there any sex in this story?? :-)

"I want the dirt man!" K

By riki (Suture) (203.109.249.132) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:43 am:

To paraphrase Brad:

"The formation of Luxology ... should ... kill ... LightWave ... and ... cut off ... customers ... [heads]."

OKAY OKAY I threw in the word "Heads" but now we're getting more interesting :-)

By Matthew Maxwell (Mmaxwell) (68.7.190.51) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 08:02 am:

Replies to a couple folks -

Dave S:
While i can see how you might come to the conclusion that i believe having a new development team at NT is a bad thing, that's not the basis for my question. I simply wanted to know how many folks, and who they were, who were working on Lightwave currently. Sometimes teams get totally nuked and built up from scratch and that's a good thing.

Larry:
Oh, you're supposed to weld them? That explains things...

I thought you'd been in on some NT developer meetings or the like so as you'd be able to provide a definitive answer to things.

That's a nice little character assassination you just ran on Brad P. Personally, i think it's more than a bit unfair. We don't know what was going on when all the folks involved left and until we do, speculating on their character traits, while fun, is uncool.

You and i both worked at a place where the management treated the talent like dirt. Under such a situation, the only sane thing is to is move on to greener pastures. I have no definitive evidence that this is what happened at NT (nor is it likely that i ever will).

But it could certainly explain some things. And what the hell, rampant speculation is FUN!

-Matt, who really shouldn't do this before coffee...

By policarpo (Policarpo) (168.215.166.253) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 11:06 am:

in the immortal words of P.F. Seljunckt,

"the grass is always greener on the otherside unless of course you were responsible for tending to your own lawn in the first place."

By Adam Jeffries (Zithen) (24.205.92.210) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:26 pm:

Thanks for the insight, Larry.

Well, if everything is business as usual, if Allen and Stuart are hammering out the next LW and if LW8 will be the Mecca that was slipped out, then there really isn't much for us users to worry about, is there. I hope LW8 is a new architecture. I will be disappointed if it will be like a 7.0 upgrade. I didn't upgrade from 6.5 until I knew 7.5 was coming. The next upgrade should be out fairly soon since its been in development almost a year now, right? Hope so.

By Barney Larry (Barneylarry) (64.170.155.245) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 06:56 pm:

I would have to agree with Matthew's post. As much as Larry likes to expose himself, and assassinate anyone and everyone having to do anything with LightWave in the past, it is unprofessional behavior. Why not take the high road and wait until everything is settled? Do you represent NewTek when you rant this way? Why not diss on, oh, I don't know, the competition? As much as I love one sided mud-slinging, I get enough of that when there are elections approaching. Will you tell us next that Lux has ties to Al Qaida?

Whatever happens, happens. Your rants make me not care. What goes around comes around.

By Szabolcs Matefy (J3st3r) (213.197.73.103) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 07:24 am:

Hey folks...I`m the most doubtful guy around here. But Larry hadn`t told anything wich is not based on facts. I`m glad, that his faith is unbroken, and that gives me a slight hope, that I don`t need to change to Maya. Because that`s my greatest fear.
Anyway I do suppose, that Chuck frequent statements about the developement of LW covers something really big. But look at Mirai. Although the owner company has been replaced at least three times in the last few years, we have no information about it, how it`s developement going, etc. Mirai customers suppose, that Mirai is cancelled, and many of them are migrating to another sw, namely Maya. So will do many uncertain LW users, if NT won`t give some information about developement. I do believe, that NT DOES understand, that they are living from customers, therfore they have to keep customers. And currently keeping customers means giving detailed, convincing informations about the developement of LW. If it is not given, I do see only one logical answer. There is a lawsuit, or agreement between Lux and NT, what is not figured out yet. And until it`s not solved, we won`t have information. But many of us will migrate to Maya or XSI

Jester

By Elmar Moelzer (Elmar_Moelzer) (62.47.36.118) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 01:43 pm:

Hello
All I can say is that LWs future is fine, maybe better than ever. Nothing to worry about and everything is business as usual.
The only thing that will make users migrate to other apps is the fact, that there are too many people posting too many stupid rumors and speculations that are not based on any facts and that are taken too serious by stupid wannabe journalists in a magazine like 3dWorld (which has lost all its credibility to me now). Of course these rumors find heavy support by competitors of NewTek and I have the feeling that they maybe even try to spread them around by paying some more wannabe journalists and sending out trolls into public forums. If you dont want to hurt LW or NewTek (and therefore yourself), better stop posting this •••• now!
CU
Elmar

By arthur argote (Archiea) (68.164.48.198) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 07:05 pm:

Sorry Elmar, but that was one weak post. I think by posting hear alerts Nt to our concern, alerts new people of the participation and passion of the users, and is perhaps the only place that Nt has posted a response to this situation.

I find it deplorable that NT has allowed Luxology to attract such uncertainy to the public/industry perception of Nt and LW by NOT publicly clarifying the facts. This is perhaps why the 3D WORLD Published what they did... they have no other facts.

A few months ago, NT did a wonderful "state of the Union" article regarding the toaster that appeared both in print and on line. It clearly stated the direction the toaster is headed and what plans NT has.

I wrote an email to Phillip pointing out that such an article on LW would do wonders considering the uncertainly that was presented to the industry with the inital press releases from Luxology. Why is it that Luxology was profiled in CG channel and not NT? And note when i say industry, I'm talking about people who AREN"t using LW.. thats where Nt should be focusing.

Regardless of what the facts may be, I think we can all agree that losing the San Francisco team is a loss on some level, even if its just of loss of sheer manpower. My fear is that we are entering a toaster centric era for NT. I'm not saying that LW development has actually stopped. What I'm saying is that there is a PERCEPTION that development of LW has been affected. I hear Larry speak of Lw programmers rubbing elbows with FX artist working on the next version of Lw. i believe him. How about even a CGChannel article to revigorate the industry's perception that LW is still on the shelf.

Speaking of shelf, I was just in the new apple pasadena store. Any reference to 3D is given to maya. Its like LW for the mac doesn't exist. Even less excusable is the apple web page. Under the creative section, there's no mention of LW. This is absolutely deplorable...it smells of Amiga mishandling during the last days of commodore. I know, apple = small market share. But its a high profile market share. You should have apple install the Lw demo on all the macs in the store as they do with Photoshop and other aps. have LW BE the photoshop of 3D for the mac community. Hello, inspire 2.0?

I don't understand why the sudden absense of Brad seemed synchronous with the absense of Lw's promotion. there seems to be a shift from promoting Lw to the industry, to promotion LW to the Lw centric crowds. Ads in Newtekpro and keyframe? What is this, software narcissism? How about in macworld at least, or in Rez. All see is alot of Video toaster promoting, and only William's extensive effort to the current Lw community (tutorials, contests, etc). Promotional sales are great, but I'm talking about perception.

Why is it that Luxology does high profile articles on Zoic, Digital Domain and others while at Nt site all I see is how you are giving away everything but the kitchen sink if you buy LW. I click onto the LW page and I get a rather amateurish looking images submitted by contest winners. Looks like its 1995 al over again. I mean this is fine, but it belongs in the community or tutorials section. The splash page of LW appears as a hub for fans of LW, which is great in one respect, but it should really show LW's best foot forward. And that best foot is commercial work.

Really, its like Luxology and NT should switch web pages. If I went to Luxology, the site that "provides educational and support materials" for Lw users, and found the tutorials from the NT site, that would make sense, Conversly, if I go to the LW splash page at NT and saw spreads on Zoic and DD, that makes me want to buy LW and that I'm buying a polished, professional app. See what I mean?

I understand william is the evangelist, and I respect his current efforts. However, i gotta ask, william, who are you evagelising LW to? Current Lw users? I mean really, who? What markets have you outlined and stradegized? What plans do you have for Lw having a larger presence at apple sotes. what is your Solution to the Maya/shake sale that Apple is promoting? Why isn't Lw included if LW's native float render compliments shake float compositing engine so perfectly. Why is it that I never received the LW demo disk that I ordered from siggraph for a high profile friend of mine. She was willing to give Lw a try, but since I could never get the demo disk, she went with maya. She is convinced that LW can't do character animation since she's stuck with the impression from Lw 5.6. What are your plans to aleviate an oversight like this? How about making just the LW demo app downloadable for your web page?

I saw you at the last LW user group. While your efforts evident in the tutorials and so forth are great, my fear is that your expertise isn't well rounded enough to cover the visual effects field. I also saw Duece who seems well rounded in the toaster/LW/aura arena, but thats in service of Lw products. My concern is that, again, the current staff at NT is toaster centric. I'm seeing alot more of LW being promoted within the confines of the Toaster universe. There appears to have been a shift towards promoting the benefits of Lw and the toaster as a package, as opposed to LW on its own as a universal solution.

I think you guys need to suppliment that with at least one more person who works in the visual effects field who can relate LW to both the profiles and circles that Discreet and Shake operate in. This would prove invaluable to LW's current disappearing presence to new customers. Who cares if CURRENT LW users know about Lw and can enter contest. Most of us are too busy to enter contests.

There I go pissing upwind again....

By Elmar Moelzer (Elmar_Moelzer) (62.47.36.118) on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 10:13 pm:

So Arthur you think that this was a weak post?
Maybe you are right, but at least it was based on facts and not speculation.

>This is perhaps why the 3D WORLD Published what they did... they have no other facts.>
If one doesnt know anything for sure one better shuts up and keeps searching for more info before writing ••••. Sorry but this is not professional journalizm, but boulevard- niveau at best.

>I don't understand why the sudden absense of Brad seemed synchronous with the absense of Lw's promotion>
Sorry, but I see more LW- promotion now, than I have ever seen before(and I have been around for quite some time)...
And I think, what you say about William is very, very unfair. I know him a bit and man I have never seen anyone working that hard, trying to be everywhere at the same time day and night and doing so much great stuff with so little budget.
But obviously there are always people, that find something to moan about in everything. I can still remember people moaning about missing tutorials i.e. Now that there are plenty (thanks to William), they say, that they would rather like something else... I cant understand that sorry. You will also find many great pics in teh LW- gallery- section of NTs page. Videos are much harder to get though, because of copyrights etc...

>Why is it that Luxology does high profile articles on Zoic, Digital Domain and others while at Nt site all I see is how you are giving away everything but the kitchen sink if you buy LW>
Sorry, but there are more userprofiles around than ever, not only on NTs site, but on CGfocus, on NT- Europes site etc(again thanks to William). The people featured there are all great artists. Making an interview takes its time, I am sure we will see even more in the future.

>I think we can all agree that losing the San Francisco team is a loss on some level>
It was never officially stated, that NT lost the SF- team!

>what is your Solution to the Maya/shake sale that Apple is promoting?>
There has been a wonderfull bundle of LW/Toaster etc with Digital Fusion and it has been there for quite some time now. For you to know DF4.0 is floating- point as well, in fact it is completely bit- depth independend, flow- based and widely used in the FX- industry, especially since Shake is Mac- only. Many compositing- artists, I know say it is up to par with Shake. This may also be the cause for LW not being bundled with Shake. A bundle with DF and a bundle with Shake at the same time would have been impossible for obvious reasons(they still are competitors in some way).

>She is convinced that LW can't do character animation since she's stuck with the impression from Lw 5.6>
One could do great CA with LW5.6 as well. Just check out what Foundation Imaging did for "Troopers" or all the other animated series they have done (the last were done with LW 6+ though). I think Larry "Splinegod" Shultz will be happy to tell you more about that. And then there was Messiah at the time too.

CU
Elmar

By Emmanuel Henne (Emmanuel) (145.254.209.40) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 07:16 am:

Hi,

I would agree that there is a certain lack of perception right now.
When I asked my professor about purchasing LW for the students, he asked "Does it still exist ?", but I gotta say that this pretty understandable in a time where MAYA moves in even more aggressively than MAX.
XSI has the same problem, he said that he used to teach and work with SI earlier, but that he thinks that XSI won't get a foot in the door in the industry.
Weak opinions, nonetheless he is the one who handles our budget
So, all that I can do is do my school projects in LW the best I can to prove anybody that this software is out of the box the best production tool.
Students around me are getting infected, they watch my projects advance and have the impression that LW is easier and more intuitive than both MAX and MAYA (which are beeing taught here, too, at our little college), and that the renderer simply blows, compared to all the other crappy renderers.
Thats all that I can do, I just work with it and answer all the questions and people are starting to get interested.
Then I show them the LW-gallery and they are blown away by the image quality, which they don't find at MAYA galleries or MAX galleries, wheather MAX or MAYA were "the tool" used for LOTR, Ep2 and games or not.
At the end of the day, this kind of microadvertisement works better than showing them a making of of Ep2.
Now, what should be done is that the dealers send capable demonstration people to the colleges and studios, unfortunately, the sales aren't high enough to make this possible at a wide range.
The next best thing would either be a collaborate effort, like a Demo Tour, or single Demo Shows in capitals.
But someone has got to stand up and do it eventually.
And NT has to polish up their image.
There could be more pictures of movies where LW was used at the NT site.

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