fielded project still jitters

[sierra]

I made a 640x480, 700 frame project (animated children's poem) which starts with trees and pans to meadows, then hills. There are clouds on another layer behind the scrolling scene. I have it set for 10 fps. I made the scene by creating a project 3x wider but still 480 height and painted the entire scene. Then I picked it up as an extremely wide brush and used the keyframer in the target project to pan it over 700 frames. It jittered like a crazy thing when I took it into Premiere.

When I play it in Aura 2.5b it moves in a somewhat jerky manner but there isn't too much jittering.

On good advice, I remade the project as a field (odd). . (Should I pan over more frames and increase the speed to get a smoother pan?) Is it that I need to increase the speed of my processor?

When I take it into Premiere 6.5, the tree branches jitter like crazy and all along the skyline the grassy hills jitter against the sky. It's well, terrible.

I was set to get VT but have been told I could probably do fine with Premiere. We are ready to get what we need for these kinds of projects to go on video or cd or dvd.

It is so frustrating to work long hours to get to "happy with the look" but then not be able to get it to play well.

Thanks for any ideas. Sierra

[jakob]

I think the first thing that needs to be asked is, what is your output?
Are you using a video card, like the Toaster? IF so, what brand?

Premiere, works with lots of different cards, even without. a card.

later,
ed

[sierra]

Jakob
Matrox G450 dual head video card 32mb 360 mHz is what I have. Of course, I have no idea if that is good or bad, but I'm happy to get another that will work if this is the problem. Thanks Sierra

[jakob]

Originally posted by sierra
Jakob
Matrox G450 dual head video card 32mb 360 mHz is what I have. Of course, I have no idea if that is good or bad, but I'm happy to get another that will work if this is the problem. Thanks Sierra

Given your response..
I'd advise you don't use interlace at all.
Try that first...

I'm assuming you are rendering to an avi
or a series of stills.

[sierra]

I didn't use a fielded project at first and the jittering in Premiere sent me into the Forum here to see if I could get some help. Then at Paul Fierlinger's suggestion, I did try to import my layers into a fielded project...no luck. Then I tried starting over with a fielded project from the get go--still looks awful.

Perhaps the trouble is with Premiere 6.5. I just got it and its possible I'm not on the right settings there? So many things to wrap my poor old brains around but I will keep trying anything and eveything till get my nice little animation to play well.

Thanks again for trying to help me. Sierra ("See errors" today)

[paulfierlinger]

Jakob,
can the 10 fr/sec speed be the problem? I've never worked that way. Sierra, try trippling the amount of frames and then create a 30 fr/sec move. Is there any animation in your move or is it just a pan over a static background?
Paul F.

[sierra]

Hi Paul,

There are many little animals running around in this animation. You see the bunnies doing their thing, then scroll to the next scene where we see the bears walking around, then we scroll and see the chicks running around doing something else, etc.

At one point we scroll upwards to see what's happening in the clouds and that pan works very well--no jitters--probably because there's no high contrast in the clouds to catch the eye?

I want to use a scroll because it ties together the little world the animals inhabit. I know I could just use transitions but I feel I would lose something that works quite well if I give up my pan.

I could definitely try taking the triple wide brush and keyframe it over triple the frames. Do you suggest I try that with the project fielded or not? Thanks for your help. I have been experimenting with the Motion Blur and Motion Step on the keyframer and taking notes. So far, just nothing works but eventually I have faith I will know how to solve this problem. Thanks. Sierra

[jakob]

Originally posted by paulfierlinger
Jakob,
can the 10 fr/sec speed be the problem?

Oh ya, that's a possible problem.
I thought we'd clear up one problem at a time.
If it's not "video".. forget the interlace, then we can deal with the number of frames/sec, and blur, etc.

Just because sierra is using Premiere,
doesn't mean it's interlace video.

[paulfierlinger]

I wonder if there is a setting in Premier for fielding of the output in its video window, or are you seeing the shimmering on a TV monitor output? Also, are you sure that you have the fielding done properly in Aura? When you look at your timeline frame by frame, do you see the image go up and down?
Paul F.

[sierra]

Boy talk about angels. Thanks to you both for helping me.

OK. Paul I just tried your suggestion of using my super-wide brush over 2100 frames rather than 700.

Jakob, I did not field the project at all.

The jitters are gone!!!
Thank you, there is a God.

But (oh I hate that word) when I play it back in Aura or Premiere now, it plays a few frames, then jerks then plays a few frames and then jerks. (Is this a power problem with my processor, ram, something like that?) Also it gets to about page 1100 and then stops moving, something I never saw the Keyframer do before (I set the keys on frame 1 and frame 1500. Is it because the brush is simply not big enough to go over that many pages? It seems a little bezerk to me.

So it seems it was a fps problem. How astute of you to zero in on that.

Now I can go on telling my whoppers to little kids who have no way to defend themselves from my misinformation (bunny blossoms fall from the honey trees.)

If you have any ideas about the jerking, I'm all ears.

Cordially Sierra

[sierra]

Thanks to your help Paul and Jakob, I no longer have the jitters. The jerking however is awful. But I did this.

After tripling the number of pages and tripling the speed, the animation ran without jitter, but way too sluggishly.

Then I went in and deleted every other page (I wish there were a keyboard command to delete an image, it so tiresome to arrow over, then drop menu-- delete image, arrow over, drop menu--delete image). Anyway now it runs nicely.

On another thread someone mentioned setting at 60 fps. How does one do that? (In either Premiere or Aura.) Sierra

[paulfierlinger]

It's too bad I couldn't answer you before you deleted every other frame. You can set your remote player to play real time and NOT every frame. With frames tripled, you wouldn't have seen a difference in your animation. But I don't understand what your final product is indended to be.

Paul F.

[SBowie]

Originally posted by sierra

Then I went in and deleted every other page (I wish there were a keyboard command to delete an image, it so tiresome to arrow over, then drop menu-- delete image, arrow over, drop menu--delete image). Without taking time to address your jitter issue (more info -- and more time-- needed!), note that if all you want to do is delete every second frame, you can do it in a single operation.

Simply note the length of the layer -- say it's 60 frames -- drag the white bar at the end of the layer to halfway (30 frames) and select "Stretch" with "Interpolate" switched off in the stretch popup panel. Done like dinner. :)

[dhomas]

When to field and when not to field... and KeyFramer motion.

The only time to use fielding is if the destination of your project is to be video (tape or monitor). If it is, then you need to use fielding. If you are using fielding, you MUST do KeyFramer motions AFTER you have changed to fielding. If you apply KeyFramer before fielding and then change to fielded, the motions will still be frame based. So you should decide if it's to be fielded before you begin a project. It is a good idea to save KeyFramer setups (keys, settings, etc) when you create them incase you need to rebuild them. If you realized you needed to use fielding and forgot, you can go back to the un KeyFramer'd project, switch to fielded, then load the KeyFramer motions and reapply them.

If your projects are intended for computer playback then fielding isn't going to help much. Fielding is intended for video playback not for improving motion.

Or something like that...

[paulfierlinger]

So you should decide if it's to be fielded before you begin a project.

I think if it's 2D animation, it's better to create the project in frames, so you won't end up with 2 different drawings in one frame (one odd, the other even). That's why I wrote that (when finished drawing) you must save out every frame as a picture sequence and import the sequence back, after the project's setting has been changed to odd fielding. Then you create the keyframes. I should mention that after you see that everything works, you can deleat the folder with the pictue sequence because it may hog a lot of HD space.

Paul F.

[sierra]

>"Stretch" with "Interpolate"
Steve, thanks mucho. I did NOT understand that about time stretching. What a sweet trick. (I still wish I had hot key to delete images but can't find it as a possibility in the settings panel.)


dhomas
You are right: I save every keyframe path like a crazy person because because I end up redoing stuff so much (partly from ignorance and partly from having more than one use for things.)

>If you are using fielding, you MUST do KeyFramer motions AFTER you have changed to fielding. If you apply KeyFramer before fielding and then change to fielded, the motions will still be frame based.

When I Keyframed the project several ways -- with and without fielding and I still had the jitters until Paul suggested I triple the speed and the frames but...see below,



Paul
>you must save out every frame as a picture sequence and import the sequence back, after the project's setting has been changed to odd fielding


Paul I do save out all my work as single frame targas because it keeps the alpha channel as avi does not. And you're right, I have to go in after I'm done with a project and delete mucho megabytes from all my over-anxious saving. But do you mean that what you save as single frames was never keyframed?

For instance: I made this pan with no field. It is 700 frames. I made it by keyframing my 3x wide brush of the entire landscape. Then I saved it out as single targas. Then I reloaded it into a project that was fielded.

It sounds like dhomas is saying I would have to re-keyframe the pan (you know take the landscape brush and keyframe it over 700 frames) all over again in the fielded project. Are you saying I could just load the pan already keyframed in the non-fielded project into the fielded project? Because the problem of the jitters was solved by increasing the frames and speed, I am now wondering if it matters when I keyframe the pan?


>But I don't understand what your final product is intended to be.
I'm making a 30 minute video of children's animated poems. I also hope to get these on Public TV (they want short 2-3 minute children's stuff for seques, my spies tell me.) But I also want to make 3 minute birthday/holiday animations for children in cd or dvd formats. So would I have to make 2 versions of each project for that (one fielded and one not?)

Now that you solved the jittering by guiding me to triple the frames and speed, I'm left with the jerking as it scrolls. I experimented with taking one-third of the project into Premiere and it ran fine. So I think that tells me I need a faster computer. No? We are ready to upgrade to what we need.

Thanks everyone for your time in this. Sierra

[paulfierlinger]

But do you mean that what you save as single frames was never keyframed?

That's right. Typically, I first merge all the layers, then triple the frames (because I animate at 10 fr/sec), then I export the entire scene as a pictue sequence. BTW, the path to create shortcuts is the first item in Settings: Keyboard Shorts/configure/Layer: Delete Image. (or Shift D)

The jerking you see is just the limited playback memory of your computer, not the final output. dhomas can give you better advice as to which computer to buy (or Steve). But since you are headed for CDs and video tape (PBS), perhaps you need to field every scene with a camera move. The horizontal pans are the most sensitive, as you have found out. I don't field everything; I mostly work with NONE fields.

Paul F

[sierra]

Paul

Thanks for the Delete key tip. I looked everywhere in Image shortcuts and didn't scrutinize the Layer list well enough.

Yeah, even though I'm going to pass on the VT for now, I'm still going to get a computer that will meets its requirements so I can get one later.

You were a wonderful help with this and I thank you again.

[paulfierlinger]

You are welcome and good luck with your business.
Paul

[sierra]

OK, one more question, because I'm still puzzling over what is probably obvious.

Paul, let's forget we are talking about a pan. (I've given up on panning the animation after all -- it just doesn't look good enough no matter what I do. There are lots of other fun ways to go from to scene to scene so I'll let it rest for now until I have better equipment and better understanding.)

But let's say you painted the background scenes for your animation in several layers. You did this in a none-fielded project so you have to merge and triple the frames first before you save them. You saved out as single frames to be loaded into a fielded project. I understand this part.

What I don't get is this: when you make the cels for your anibrush (example bunnies running out of the scene) do you make the anibrush cels in the unfielded project, then triple them and save them out as single files to be loaded as an anibrush in the fielded project and then keyframed? Or must you make the cels for the anibrush in the fielded project (which means 2x as many cels to paint). dhomas, when you say you can't take frames keyframed in unfielded projects into fielded projects simply by tripling them, do you mean anibrushes that were created in unfielded projects? If this is a dumb question, I apologize. I tried making a brush in a fielded project and it was cumbersome because of the double frames.

Sierra

[paulfierlinger]

But let's say you painted the background scenes for your animation in several layers. You did this in a none-fielded project so you have to merge and triple the frames first before you save them.

Nope. I don't triple the frames until the entire scene is ready to be saved onto my video drive (my editing system, DPS, has its own video drives). And I don't necessarily animate everything in three's. There are situations where single cel animation is desirable, like a rolling ball or lipsync or motion to a beat of music. In such instances I will triple the frames which I intended as animation in three's BEFORE I merge all layers and draw the single-framed stuff along with the now tripled frames. That's why I don't simply think of my work as 10fr/sec. There is another way to do this, which is to use the option of merging only visible layers and keeping the layer with single cel animation separate. But sometimes I'll want to combine 3's and 4's and singles in one layer -- in such a case, I just consider this scene drawn at 30fr/sec and will not plan to triple the frames after I'm done.

In your example of the bunny running out of the frame, actually in all cases of animbrushes coming to think of it, I'll use only single frame animation. BTW do you know that clicking the right mouse of an animbrush will not stamp the picture down but advance it one frame back? -- in case you think you might have goofed.

Paul F.

[sierra]

No, I didn't know that about backstepping the anibrush. That is a helpful tip. I've been using the ctrl backarrow (because I goof often.)

So are you saying you draw along with your animation in the none-fielded project sometimes and at other times you draw along with your animation after it is brought into the fielded project? That you draw along with your animation before you triple the frames sometimes and other times you draw along after you have 3 frames for each original frame? I certainly get the fact that single cel animation is advantageous sometimes (like your example of wanting a ball or lips to move in short increments.) But if I want my anibrush to synchronize with the expanded (tripled then doubled in the fielded project) wouldn't I have to make my anibrush at least tripled?

It's nice of you to share your work patterns with me. I will experiment with this all. When I was making animations only for my little grandsons, it wasn't so important to get it professional looking. But now, I want it to be the highest quality I can make of course and I'm still learning so much of Aura (after 10 years with Deluxe Paint, which was less complex). Ah the exciting days of DP.

[paulfierlinger]

OK, fielding is something I'll do AFTER I have finished my drawing. Then I save. I never do any animation, meaning drawing and coloring of frames, in a fielded project -- only camera moves.

In other words, if I have drawn a scene as 30fr/sec, I'll merge, *skip the tripling of frames*, save out as a picture sequence, import picture sequence into fielded project, *make camera move* and save to video disk.

Having dhomas' Tool Box is very helpful here, because after tripling the drawings Sandra can use a tool which separates the originals from the repeats so she won't have to color repeats. There is another handy tool in there that will collect all the original numbers only and put them on a separate layer. So if you draw the bunny and triple it, but later want to cut only the single drawings as an animbrush, you can use this tool.

PF

[sierra]

I see. Thanks. (When the penny finally drops it all seems so obvious.)

Yes, I have dhomas' Toolbox and use it A LOT and still am not using all the functions it can do. This is one function I haven't understood the use of till now. So another little door is opened.

Regards Sierra

[paulfierlinger]

-:)