Transferring AVCHD Files to SpeedEdit for Editing

[harpert]

I'm assuming, based on another thread in here, that the latest version of SpeedEdit will edit Sony and Panasonic's new AVCHD format. Transferring the AVCHD video to a fast duo core PC, I assume, will required an HDMI card installed in the editing system. Sony's HDR-SR1 (30 gb HDD - holds 4 hours of HD) and the other Sony AVCHD camcorders have composite, component, USB 2.0 and HDMI connectors on them. There's a PCI express-based card available (about $250) for transferring HD video via the card's HDMI interface so I assume that's how MPEG 4/H.264 video and audio can be transferred to a fast duo core PC system from the HDR-SR1's HDD. I doubt USB 2.0 is even fast enough to transfer files off the HDR-SR1's HDD. I think the USB 2.0 port is used to transfer only digital stills to a computer. Are my assumptions correct?

[harpert]

I came across this URL regarding detailed specs for the Sony consumer-level HDR-UX1 (DVD) & HDR-SR1 (HDD):

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Detailed-Specs-on-the-Sony-HDR-UX1-and-HDR-SR1.htm

My main interest is in the HDR-SR1 model. Below is what was covered on that model (based on a limited Japanese to English translation). I held an HDR-SR1 at the local Best Buy (on sale last weekend, but regular price now) and it's got an AV connector (I assume output only) inspite of the comments below regarding no composite connector. Apparently the camcorder's USB connector (I assume 2.0) is used for transferring to a computer after all. Who knows how long that will take. I assume if you can transfer the video over to a USB 2.0 external drive if you don't have access to your editing computer. Who knows how long the transfer would take? I assume the camcorder's HDMI connector will transfer data to the PCI express-based card I mentioned in my previous post. I'm sure there would be some signal degradation going from the AV cables when copying over to a mini-DV camcorder's tape, but that transfer would obviously take as long to transfer as the original recording.

Another concern I have is the camcorder's HDD's mean time between failure (MTBF) rate and it tolerates minor jostling - may only know that info if I owned and used one.

- The data rate of recordings will range from 5mbps to 15mbps. The lowest data rate will allow for up to 11 hours of video to be stored on the 30GB hard drive, while the highest will allow for 4 hours.

- A “one-touch disk” button will set the camcorder to copy the video to the computer, then to write the video out to DVD.

- The same software supplied with the UX1 will be included, which will be able to write out to standard sized DVDs and convert the video to standard definition.

- The connection to the PC is via USB, not Firewire.

- There is a HDMI connection for watching the video on a high-definition TV. It also looks like there will be a component video output, but there is no sign of a composite or S-Video connection.

- The hard drive will be protected against impacts, but it isn’t guaranteed. As Google translation puts it “it is not something which guarantees that the hard disk does not break vis-a-vis all impacts”.

[harpert]

Here's the link to the Sony HDR-SR1's manual. It should shed some more light on that camcorder. I don't have time to review and post anything on it right now:

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/HDRSR1.PDF

[John Perkins]

Depending on the compression level you set, those cameras only encode at 5-15Mbps. DV is 25Mbps.

So transfer of these highly compressed files won't be an issue. USB 2.0 is 480 Mbps, so even at highest quality you could transfer almost 32x faster than playback. (assuming the camera and computer could keep up)

These cameras produce MPEG4 transport streams, which are quite different than the program streams, avi or mov files editors normally work with. They are closer to the MPEG2 transport streams used in HDV, but it would still take a good deal of time to implement.

SpeedEDIT 1.0 won't support these cameras. The market penetration wasn't great enough to warrant the engineering time right now.

As if we needed any more "standards" thrown into the mix...I can think of 6-8 currently competing digital formats just of the top of my head.

We are keeping an eye on these cameras, but don't buy one based on SpeedEDIT 1.0 support.

[harpert]

I read on another forum and the manual that transfer to a PC would be via the camcorder's USB 2.0 connector. I was curious how fast it might take to transfer data/footage off the drive. For event videography, I have a concern for transferring footage during a shoot and I might possibly need a fast enough laptop to do that or buy another camcorder to maintain the same video quality. I'm aware SpeedEdit 1.0 won't handle AVCHD, but I believe the next version will be able to handle it. I assume the next version (standalone and bundled with VT(5)) will ship when VT(5) finally comes out. I'm used to using mini-DV and I'd have to offload the footage to a duo core editing system that I don't use right now (with SpeedEdit standalone or VT(5)) to free up the camcorder's HDD. Thank goodness hard drives are cheaper and hold more! But then, I'd have to have a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD burner for those few people who have Blu-Ray or HD-DVD players! So, does it make sense to go with either an HDV or AVCHD camcorder at this time? I assume videographers using HDV camcorders have the same issues as I would have with AVCHD. I haven't gone the dual layer DVD route yet. I'm still occasionally making standard DVD coasters and don't like the expense of dual layer DVDs - mistakes or not!

Tom H.

[Seattle-HotShot]

If you get time to look into this, I'm curious if the camera would come with any software that could transcode the MPEG4 or what ever it is recording, into a different file format. If that is included, then you could dump the files to a hard drive, transcode once, and then work in what ever format / program you choose. Not ideal, and you'd need to have a decent amount of hard drive for your "temp" files, but not a huge problem.

Brings up another issue, that I'm also facing now. I've been shooting some events tapeless, with my FireStore (40 GB version). I'm thinking something like a BluRay drive / media makes the most sense to archive my original video to. The tape heads in my GL1 are shot, so tape isn't an option, and I hate putting any more money into that when HD and HDV are here... The FireStore makes nice 2 GB files (about 9 minutes of DV), so I can burn about 18 minutes to a 4.7 GB DVD. I haven't picked up any of the DL media yet. I have burned some projects to DVD-RW as a temporary safety net, in case I have a hard drive die on me.

Or I could archive back out to DV tape, from the timeline... and probably save a few bucks by only archiving the keeper clips, instead of all the footage I shoot... except the problem with my GL1, so that's out.

To my knowledge, HD-DVD recordable drives aren't on the market yet, right? I've seen BluRay for about $1000, with media at $20 - $25 each, for 23 GB? Bit pricey, but it actually fits my needs for data back up, regardless of using it as a video output. I could also just keep buying hard drives for data backup, which oddly enough is cost effective!

I guess my point, now is to have 1 or 2 disks of archive per project, vs 10 DVD-R! Even though DVD-R is cheaper than MiniDV tapes, and I like the idea of file based vs tape based capture...

wow, got off on a tangent there, sorry!

[harpert]

I've read TMPGenc 4.0 is compatible with the AVCHD format, but it only works once the AVCHD format video is on your editing system's hard drive(s) - not during the transfer process. It does the transcoding for authoring on DVD+/-R/RW. I have no idea how much you can fit on a regular DVD after the transcoding. I know what you mean about finding the right camcorder. My main camcorder has seen alot of use as well (heads aren't a problem for now). I need an upgrade to my old DCR-VX1000 and HDV and AVCHD are attractive formats to consider. I need to deal with a tax write-off for this year and I'm not sure whether I should go with those two formats or another mini-DV camcorder.

Tom H.

[PIZAZZ]

I understand where your heads at... I wanted to offer my input though.

The AVCHD is a VERY new format and it is highly compressed. If you have been using a VX1000 then I would suggest the Sony HDV Z1U camera or the FX1 if you want to save a little money. Excellent DV recording in addition to the HDV.

Right now for the best bang I would suggest the Panasonic HVX. It does record DV and best of all real HD that is hands above the HDV cameras from Sony, Canon, and JVC.

[harpert]

I have been looking at a decently priced FX1, but I'm not comfortable with the seller so I'm about to cancel the order and I ordered it about 2 months ago. I was told the other day that delivery is 6-8 weeks off - into next year. I'm trying to purchase something by the end of the year for a tax write-off. Thanks for the suggestion.

[harpert]

Right now for the best bang I would suggest the Panasonic HVX. It does record DV and best of all real HD that is hands above the HDV cameras from Sony, Canon, and JVC.

Are you referring to the Panasonic HVX200? I'm aware of it and the expensive storage requirements to hard drives. It's way out of my price range...

[harpert]

If you get time to look into this, I'm curious if the camera would come with any software that could transcode the MPEG4 or what ever it is recording, into a different file format. If that is included, then you could dump the files to a hard drive, transcode once, and then work in what ever format / program you choose. Not ideal, and you'd need to have a decent amount of hard drive for your "temp" files, but not a huge problem.

Brings up another issue, that I'm also facing now. I've been shooting some events tapeless, with my FireStore (40 GB version). I'm thinking something like a BluRay drive / media makes the most sense to archive my original video to. The tape heads in my GL1 are shot, so tape isn't an option, and I hate putting any more money into that when HD and HDV are here... The FireStore makes nice 2 GB files (about 9 minutes of DV), so I can burn about 18 minutes to a 4.7 GB DVD. I haven't picked up any of the DL media yet. I have burned some projects to DVD-RW as a temporary safety net, in case I have a hard drive die on me.

Or I could archive back out to DV tape, from the timeline... and probably save a few bucks by only archiving the keeper clips, instead of all the footage I shoot... except the problem with my GL1, so that's out.

To my knowledge, HD-DVD recordable drives aren't on the market yet, right? I've seen BluRay for about $1000, with media at $20 - $25 each, for 23 GB? Bit pricey, but it actually fits my needs for data back up, regardless of using it as a video output. I could also just keep buying hard drives for data backup, which oddly enough is cost effective!

I guess my point, now is to have 1 or 2 disks of archive per project, vs 10 DVD-R! Even though DVD-R is cheaper than MiniDV tapes, and I like the idea of file based vs tape based capture...

wow, got off on a tangent there, sorry!

I'd recommend archiving to huge hard drives since they're alot cheaper now. Archiving your unedited files to a DVD for archiving seems like a good idea, however, how long would data transfer to/from alot of DVDs take? You'd be handling a collection of DVDs at some point for one project. Adding more projects would require yet even more DVDs for archiving. I'd recommend purchasing two or more 500 gb hard drives to archive your files until you're ready to edit. I haven't seen any HD-DVD recordable drives either. You would get more for your money by archiving to huge hard drives instead of 23 gb write-once Blu-Ray disks at $20+ each. You can get a 500 gb drive for around $200 now. Transfer to/from a hard drive should be alot faster than Blu-Ray or HD-DVD and once you have the files on your drive, you can edit the files from there. If you're using IDE or SATA drives and you're running out of space for those drives in your tower, I'd recommend going with SATA drives placed in external SATA-to-USB 2.0 boxes connected to your system.

Tom H.

[PIZAZZ]

Are you referring to the Panasonic HVX200? I'm aware of it and the expensive storage requirements to hard drives. It's way out of my price range...

Is the camera itself out of your price range or the associated extras?

Just as you suggested to Carlin, Hard drives are inexpensive. Record via firewire directly out of the HVX200 to a laptop or Nnovia or FireStore or similar. You would never need to purchase the more expensive P2 media I believe you are worried about. Most people do not remember but the 200 does have the ability to record to DV tapes too. It is not just P2 media.

Like I said before, if you want to have the best quality for the price then look at the HVX200. If you can't afford it then fall back to the HDV lineup. The new Canon G1 HDV camera is quite feature packed also.

[harpert]

Is the camera itself out of your price range or the associated extras?

Just as you suggested to Carlin, Hard drives are inexpensive. Record via firewire directly out of the HVX200 to a laptop or Nnovia or FireStore or similar. You would never need to purchase the more expensive P2 media I believe you are worried about. Most people do not remember but the 200 does have the ability to record to DV tapes too. It is not just P2 media.

Like I said before, if you want to have the best quality for the price then look at the HVX200. If you can't afford it then fall back to the HDV lineup. The new Canon G1 HDV camera is quite feature packed also.

The Panasonic HVX200 (even without P2 storage) and the Canon G1 HDV - still too pricey for me at this point. In my market, brides haven't been pushing for HD right now anyway. Thanks for the ideas.

Tom H.

[Videonut]

I am a current user of the Panasonic DVX100 cameras and I have an older Canon GL1. These are the cameras that I use for wedding videos and are perfectly suited for that environment. I am with Jeff, the best bang for the buck is the Panasonic HVX200. It is really in the middle of the pack for the new 3 chip cameras. I am looking at the HVX200 right now to allow me the ability to use DV right now and have HD when I need it. I always believe that since these cameras are technology driven, buy something that will have a future. If the price tag is still too steep in these style of cameras, look at the current types of cameras, like the Panasonic DVX100 or some of the other prosumer cameras.

[hartley]

I may be wrong, but I remember reading something awhile back that SE will not support the HVX200 format. Is that correct?

[dweinkauf]

I too want to purchase the Panasonic HVX200 camera (I also own a DVX100). I have been told that SE will not support the format - something to do with the cost of purchasing the licensing.

[Seattle-HotShot]

I already have some projects "parked" on hard drives, even though they were shot to tape. I find it's quicker to just put the drive in and go about some editing than it is to recapture everything. Some of my work flow comes from having problems with batch capture when I first got started doing video. So I never really got into the idea of saving the project files and so on. If its a job I think I'd have to edit again, I just save the files to hard drive, or in some cases to DVD-Rs, or RWs, etc. I've even gone so far as to WinRAR the files into DVD sized chunks on occasion. I can't recommend that, though...

I do have to say I wish the XDCAM-HD decks were cheaper, that would be a sweet system to get into. Run a cable from your camera to the deck, and you'd have instant file based, removeable media. Same with the REV based decks, decent priced media, expensive drive.

Guess I gotta get smarter about how I work, I can never seem to afford the really great toys!

[harpert]

I am a current user of the Panasonic DVX100 cameras and I have an older Canon GL1. These are the cameras that I use for wedding videos and are perfectly suited for that environment. I am with Jeff, the best bang for the buck is the Panasonic HVX200. It is really in the middle of the pack for the new 3 chip cameras. I am looking at the HVX200 right now to allow me the ability to use DV right now and have HD when I need it. I always believe that since these cameras are technology driven, buy something that will have a future. If the price tag is still too steep in these style of cameras, look at the current types of cameras, like the Panasonic DVX100 or some of the other prosumer cameras.

Cash flow is a problem right now for me. The Panasonic DVX100 is a 3-CCD miniDV camcorder and I prefer going the HDV/DV route with the Sony FX1. Both are up there in price for me and the HVX200 is way out of my price range for now. If I go for another 3-CCD mini-DV camcorder, I'd go for the less expensive Sony 2100 for now. Thanks for the info.

Tom H.

[rbartlett]

Whilst the AVCHD workflow, wrapper, rewrapper, passthrough codec via AVI support is being worked out:

Two budget (from the pro perspective) camcorders are due this year that are less troublesome and yet are devoid from using tape:

JVC GZ-HD7 - 60GB drive that writes 1920x1080i at up to 30Mbps VBR (25.x Mbps average) as an MPEG-2 transport stream. You'd expect any HDV app to support it as it is in fact within the specification, assuming NLEs are written to any specifications! This camera is due in April, probably just in NTSC countries to start with, circa US$1800. This is 3CCD with 1/5" CMOS - which apparently holds up ok given the engineering. This should be a good move whilst we await AVCHD to go above 15Mbps. Although many testers of 3CCD 15Mbps solutions are saying that it holds up against HDV. 5.1 audio is probably a marketing trick like 800X zooms.

Samsung SC-HDX15 is likely to be sub $1300. It is H.264 (which the Sanyo HD1, HD1a and forthcoming HD2 has employed). There is already a non-recompressing passthrough file space doubling variety rewrapper for this format. Works fine on the sample clips and the "conversion" is freeware. To my eyes it is about as slick to edit as HDV on a fairly recent PC, perhaps a tad less. The Samsung is touted as being 720p and 1080i but it is hard to say at this point whether it is capable of the sizable 720p60 rate.


Following on......

If neither of these make any headway, there is the Panasonic 3CCD AVCHD camcorders. The consumer model (HDC-SD1) already out in Japan is apparently engineered to be warmer than reality picture wise. The prosumer/profesionnal AG-HSC1U is the pretty much the same SDHC camcorder with an onboard hard disc to offload your footage from. This has a more natural response curve but is probably >85% the same camera underneath. Prices are in the mere mortal bracket.

The JVC apparently looks like a lump. So it would be more suitable for events and weddings where size counts to earn the best viewpoint and not have to talk as equals to the wedding guests.

Although either HD format ought to be able to fit on HD-DVD, BD-Video or 3X DVDR based HD-DVD possibly between the service and the reception for an early viewing..... Remembering that without tape you've got an opportunity to work faster than normal/realtime.

There is a whole raft of solutions. I'm quite soft on the JVC GY-HD111 and 251 range but then I'm not expecting 1080p60 anytime soon like the numbers game appears to be trying to do to the world. This is the year of the imager as much as the arrival of a plethora of compression and storage formats.

Many of the above are essentially vapor right now. Just try to imagine what it feels like waiting for the PAL or multistandard versions/optional-upgrades for these camcorders. I might just settle for the Sanyo Xacti HD2..... Then rent an HVX200 or Panasonic HPX-500 as and when required.

As far as carrying a laptop around rather than P2. It seems to me that if you are resorting to doing that then you might as well have a camera without a deck at all. There are many camera heads and lens combinations that you could capture HD-SDI or HDMI directly from. Now we are back on the credibility angle, but you'd use these cameras for a fixed setup and the Thomson Viper uses the umbilical approach afaik.

As far as the route of this main thread. There is likely to be a codec and a means to wrap AVCHD held in MPEG-transport streams as AVI (with or without the MPEG bit on arrival) sometime down the track. SeriousMagic's DVRack will probably offer a means to convert on the fly, or Cineform will. Canopus already have a converter for AVCHD online. I've downloaded it from the Japanese site, but you also need CanopusHQ installed on your system. So it isn't quite free and might be a nuisance to standardise on due to the licensing requirements of Canopus' YUV based DI format.

At least nobody is saying that AVCHD is impossible to edit, or that it is too compressed to hold up to editing. Whether it is or not, it'll surely be edited upon and enjoyed too. It is almost as techie in the modern digital world as the innovative years of the color analog system. As I'm led to understand as I'm far too young to really know much about all that ;)

[harpert]

I ended up buying what I could afford at the time before the end of last year. AVCHD camcorders aren't the best for me as I shoot mostly event videos. I'd have to buy another AVCHD camcorder and a fast enough laptop to download the footage from one camcorder as I'm taping on the other one. I preferred buying the HC-3 as a less expensive intro to the HDV format and using tape gives me more flexibility over a harddrive-based camcorder.

[ScorpioProd]

"Not only will NLEs need to be enhanced, editors will need to accept
decoding times 3X slower than HDV. Slow decoding will limit realtime,
multi-stream native AVCHD editing. Editors will also need to live with
encoding times that are 8X longer than for MPEG-2."

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/hdhdv/depth/hdv_mpeg2_cameras_022607/

Also note on the: "JVC GZ-HD7 - 60GB drive that writes 1920x1080i at up to 30Mbps VBR (25.x Mbps average) as an MPEG-2 transport stream. You'd expect any HDV app to support it as it is in fact within the specification, assuming NLEs are written to any specifications!"

I wouldn't assume that at all. AFAIK, NO part of the HDV spec covers VBR. And all the companies that have added XDCAM HD support took a long time to add support for the two VBR modes it offers. The ONLY part of XDCAM HD that "any" HDV supporting NLE could handle easily was the 25Mb/s CBR HDV mode.

[rbartlett]

Eugene: Thanks on that, something I really hadn't appreciated. I thought D-VHS had a VBR mode upto 28Mbps but that was in fact CBR, albeit that this isn't part of the HDV spec. Vegas and SpeedEDIT seem to be ok with VBR program streams from SD DVD discs or preparatory encodes - within limits. So it maybe that the Everio camcorder will need a transport-to-program and if things go really badly thereafter perhaps then a frame-server or DVD2AVI-signpost workflow.


Tom: I don't understand why you'd need two cameras because of anything to do with the storage medium? Or am I getting mixed up? You mention having the HC-3 already..... To clarify for others in case this puts them off the format for potentially the wrong reasons: The 4 Gig SDHC card can hold upto 40 minutes of video (13 Mbps) 60 mins (9 Mbps) and 90 mins (6 Mbps). The camcorder has a removable slot for this media, just the one unlike the flexible higher bandwidth P2 implementations. So you'd swap the 4GiB card out wouldn't you? Also, the SDHC spec and afaik camcorder support is for up to a 32GiB per card. So that would exceed a large format DV tape (DV-L) in duration. Although the question of making your living from a palmcorder would be perhaps more poignant if this is for a paid job? Rightly or wrongly AVCHD probably needs to head towards 20Mbps + AC3-5.1 if folks who would otherwise have bought 3CCD HDV camcorders are going to waver.

[harpert]

If you've ever shot event videos before, especially weddings & the associated receptions, they will go way beyond the limits of Sony's new AVCHD harddrive-based, consumer camcorder. I purchased the HC-3 (tape-based consumer) over Sony's new AVCHD because of the harddrive issue. If I want to shoot a wedding/reception in HDV format using one Sony AVCHD camcorder, I couldn't stop shooting, transfer the video footage to a laptop (and hoping the transfer would go okay and I have no idea how long that would take anyway), delete the files, and go back to shooting. I don't have a fast enough laptop anyway. As for the the 4 Gig SDHC card you mentioned, which camcorder would use that for a storage device, one of Pansonic's pro camcorders? It obviously won't work with the HC-3. I've been shooting wedding videos part-time with a DCR-VX1000 camcorder for years. Brides in my area don't want to pay $1500 for a wedding video so it's hard to go out and buy the latest, more expensive gear.

[rbartlett]

I agree, the 1st gen AVCHD units from Sony are disappointing in terms of managability of media. Panasonic's first bash and probably next gen Sony units are not so awkward but AVCHD is still rather unchartered from the PC editing perspective.

I believe the battery changing is worth factoring in, many AVCHD cameras with built-in or the provided battery unit tend to last for 60mins between charges/swaps. Often this can be overcome with larger infolithium units etc.

30GB at best quality at 15Mbps is about 4hrs of footage. Useful if you've got to record >60mins in a single run. The Sony AVCHD units are very 1st gen. They are single chip CMOS with fixed hard discs.

Panasonic's first gen units are 3CCD and SD card based (SDHC) with the professional unit having a 40GB drive to archive on-camera across from the removable SD card. So you can take your pick, remove the filled card for a fresh one, or copy across to HD and rewrite. Or copy across and swap for fresh for a backup, although you might not have a convenient break point - depending on your weddings' typical timetable.

I'm not suggesting that you should shift to AVCHD from Sony (SR1 etc) or Panasonic (AG-HSC1 etc). Or even the Everio MPEG-2 alternative that is due in April. However they are worth considering or perhaps renting if you can find someone willing to provide that type of arrangement locally? These are more at the consumer end than the prosumer IMHO.

The HC-3 is going to be fine for you. In low light your VX1000 may seem superior. 3CCD is often an indication of better imaging, prism losses aside.