Canon HV20

[Liber777]

Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?

[Carbo3D]

Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?

I've been using SE to capture footage from Canon's HV10 with no problem. The 20 is basically the same camera, only with the ability to record at 1080/24p in addition to 1080/60i.

[imagic]

I've been editing a bunch of HV-20 footage. Captured it all in SpeedEdit. Sometimes the video from that little gem can be amazing; in terms of contrast, color, and sharpness. Compares quite favorably to 1'st generation 3-CCD like the Sony HDR-FX1. Easily the most bang-for-buck in a consumer HDV camera.

I've been down-sampling HDV 1080i into 960x540 59.94p which looks phenomenal, and processes quite well (stabilization). Usually my processed footage is 960x540 59.94p with NewTek SpeedHQ 4:4:4 codec. Mixes well with raw HDV in a SD timeline.

Capture from the HV-20 into SpeedEdit works as expected. The HV-20 responds quickly to controls. Scene detection works perfectly.

Has anyone had the opportunity to bring footage into SE from the new Canon HV20 yet?

[Carbo3D]

Imagic,
How are you down sampling HDV 1080i to 59.94p? Since 60i has two fields, how are you getting to full frames? To play 60i as 30p I've been dropping a field and re-interpolating the remaining field to make a full frame.

[Mr Rid]

Beware, the 24p is not easy to extract from the tape of the HV20. Ive discovered a nasty little problem with this.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/15ydiu43co.jpg

[Bobt]

I this a HV 20 problem? The 2:3 pull down is really fielded?
Cause it sure doesnt look like 24p to me. 24p has no fields.
OR? is there need for special capture utility?

[Mr Rid]

I this a HV 20 problem? The 2:3 pull down is really fielded?
Cause it sure doesnt look like 24p to me. 24p has no fields.
OR? is there need for special capture utility?

Canon reps and others have explained to me that the HV20 captures MPEG2 to tape with a 2:3 pulldown for 30 frame per second playback- meaning there are 2 frames with interlaced fields for every 3 frames that dont have fields. The signal is also shrunk to 1440x1080. It does not capture 24p to tape. They tell you that all you have to do is have capture software that extracts the 24p signal by doing a 2:3 pullup during capture, or you need post software (After Effects, Fusion, etc) to run the pullup after youve captured it. That would be fine except the problem is that MPEG2 compresses the signal in a way that discards part of the chroma info (resulting in a 4:2:0 signal) which results in subtle color smearing that would not normally be noticeable. But because of the pulldown, the fields are slightly smeared, along wth the rest of the frame in a way that they can not be fully extracted with a normal pullup. I see forum comments that the 24p playback 'looks jaggy' but most consumers dont know what is going on exactly. It looks jaggy becausee there are slightly straying fields in the motion at all times (will not notice in images with less motion). I had to run a 'strip and interpolate field 1' then a 'strip and inertpolate field 2' operation in Fusion to entirely get rid of the fields, but this slightly blurs your image vertically, and some resolution is lost.

However, the HV20 is suppose to capture directly to a hard drive at 24p, thru the HDMI connection without any interlacing. Am not sure about the firewire. I have not tried this yet. I bought it to shoot in the field, not in a studio.

It seem retarded that Canon makes, distributes and advertises this as a 24p camcorder but then they assume you will only ever want 30 fps video when shooting 24p to tape. A rep explained that this becasue they assumed that most consumers who buy this camera do not really know what the 24p is good for, and they just want to see it playback on their 30 fps TV screens.

Meanwhile, it seems fraudulent that Canon does not warn in anyway about the inherent 30 frame tape recording of a 24p camcorder. I dont get why there isnt just an option for this. Instead, the taped 24p signal is always ruined. I assume the 30i taped signal must be ruined as well.

[Carbo3D]

Holy crap! That is terrible news about the 3:2 issue with the HV-20's. I've got a couple HV-10's, but was looking to upgrade to the 20's.....until I read Mr Rid's comments. I love the 10's, but I need TRUE 24p for compatibility with 24p film. Anyone know of a DECENT way to get 60i down to 24p without jumpy framedropping? SE is dicey, so is Fusion....and marginal with ReelVision.

[Mr Rid]

Holy crap! That is terrible news about the 3:2 issue with the HV-20's. I've got a couple HV-10's, but was looking to upgrade to the 20's.....until I read Mr Rid's comments. I love the 10's, but I need TRUE 24p for compatibility with 24p film. Anyone know of a DECENT way to get 60i down to 24p without jumpy framedropping? SE is dicey, so is Fusion....and marginal with ReelVision.

I usually read that even expensive 'prosumer' camcorders are always fudging the 24p as well as the alleged 1920x1080 image. It sucks that the HV20 actually has a true 1920x1080 CMOS, but then dumps it down to 1440x with a pulldown to tape. WTF?! You have to stay attached to a hard drive to get the 1920x 24p. And I see no portable disk recorder that works with the HV20 or any consumer camcorders.

In post, many people think it is fine to use some 'strip field and interpolate' tool to remove fields from video, but all such one-step tools discard half of your vertical resolution and motion blur info.

I'd love to know a better way, but I use Fusion (can use After Effects, etc, or even automate a batch in Photoshop) to 'strip and interpolate field 1' then do a separate 'strip and interpolate field 2', then merge/superimpose the two sequences 50%. This maintains your motion blur, but the faster the motion, the more apparent the superimposed frames may appear. Then retime the image for 24fps with 25% frame interpolation. Most of the time this looks fine to objective viewers.

I am actually infuriated over the 24p issue with the HV20 that is never mentioned in any of their advertising. Most pro reviewers also fail to mention it as they never actually tried to capture from the tape. Am suppose to be called tommorrow by a 'senier technician' at Canon. Support believes there is a way to extract the 24p but I know that none of them have actually done it themselves. I keep being told, 'there are no plans to upgrade the HV20 in regard to this issue.' Am open to ideas on how to substantially lobby Canon into doing so. It would make the HV20 a remarkable little camera.

[SBowie]

I wonder if you'd mind posting a very short zipped sequence for testing - a few seconds would suffice nicely, if it wasn't too much to ask.

[Mr Rid]

Let me know if anyone can get a different result. Here's a short 24p clip captured thru Firewire with Premiere Pro (10mb-
http://www.box.net/shared/static/grc3vdk59d.mpeg

After a pullup in Fusion, I get frames like these-
frame 51 (5mb
http://www.box.net/shared/static/qg6v6mc7re.tga
frame 63 (5mb
http://www.box.net/shared/static/ym1bt6d2ud.tga

The problem particulalry shows up in the red channel.

[Bobt]

Well thats just not right.
Shrug shoulders and can they actually advertise it that way?
Bob

[Mr Rid]

Well thats just not right.
Shrug shoulders and can they actually advertise it that way?
Bob

Thats what I said to Canon support- 'fraudulent.' They repeatedly insist all you need to do is a pullup. But I have yet to see it work.

[Bobt]

OH well you mentioned its full frame full size if you capture via PC?
That might work for my purposes.
I was looking at the RedRock Micro gear and the HV20.
http://www.redrockmicro.com/?gclid=CJ_y4_-hsY0CFTJcIgodw0NYsg
Figure no matter what camera I can get next this would be important as it shows the HVX200 behind it.
That kind of add on is a thing that keeps on giving for me. A lower end
prosumer kind of guy.

[SBowie]

Let me know if anyone can get a different result.Thanks very much - I won't get to it today, but I'll definitely do some testing.

[Mr Rid]

OH well you mentioned its full frame full size if you capture via PC?

1440x1080


I was looking at the RedRock Micro gear and the HV20.
http://www.redrockmicro.com/?gclid=CJ_y4_-hsY0CFTJcIgodw0NYsg


Yes, for when you want to look more conspicuous.

[Mr Rid]

Thanks very much - I won't get to it today, but I'll definitely do some testing.

I just realized that the inherent interlacing problem is on every fourth frame.

from Dave Newman CTO,Cineform

"... Ridlen is correct that the 60i encoding of 24p is not completely reversible, whereas the 24F in the XH-A1 and XL-H1 is. The reason for the lack of complete reversibility is the 4:2:0 60i encoding which has only chroma value for pixels over two scan lines -- these scan lines may contain data from different frames, cause chroma cross-talk. The luminance is perfectly correct. Luma is encoded at 60i, and chroma at 30p, you can extract 24p from luma but not fully from chroma. If the pulldown is extracted correctly, the chroma cross-talk will only appear on every fourth frame. As our eyes are far more sensitive to luma, it is very hard to see this in motion. The only time this can be an issue is when keying, for that I recommend using HMDI and shooting live via the Black Magic Intensity card (using the new 1.5 drivers.) "

But the problem is quite noticeable in playback to my eye. Jaggy motion.

[vncnt]

How about the European 50i/25p Canon HV20 camera as an alternative?
We shouldn't have pulldown problems with those.

[ren_at_home]

I've been drooling all over my keyboard for the last few days checking out the HV20 and all the funky filmic options to add to it.

but since reading here about the 60i/24p mpeg2 cock up after already reading up on rolling shutters (HV20's cmos imaging element using a rolling shutter) http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/printable.asp?q=115
I'm suffering from dry mouth

[Mr Rid]

Yeah, also the I-frame interval and low light noise (this weird grid pattern that can not be removed) and other problems with the HV20. But, you are getting exactly what you pay for. Ive been into video gear since '79, and when anything sounds too good for the price, there is always something they are not telling you in the ads, and maybe not even in the pro reviews. Only pro user comments may catch the obscure but significant issues. Currently, any HDV around $1k is going to involve tech shortcuts and have problems. Canon is not going to make a $1000 24p camera that competes with their $10,000 HDs.

I wanted something small and inconspicous, and better quality than DV. I work with computers enough to know not to count on a hard drive camcorder like the JVC, I definitely hate the Sony touch screens, and wanted to at least try out some semblance of 24p. I think the HV20 is fine for the price. But for more reliable imaging, you have to jump into another price bracket.

[ixlor8]

I am shooting in the HD 1080 mode of the Canon HV20. Capture in SpeedEdit with Firewire. Edit in HD 1080 within SpeedEdit.

What is the best way to author the HD1080 to a SD DVD?

[vncnt]

In SpeedEdit, just render your clips to a PAL or NTSC format and use some DVD authoring program (myDVD, DVDit!, DVD workshop, etc) to create the DVD-image. Burn the image to a DVD.

[visugeek]

I have been able to remove the pulldown with Adobe After FX. After FX can't read the Mpeg clip howerver, so it has to beconverted to another format. I chose QT, Animation codec, so it doesn't recompress. It's painful, but it works.

[Mr Rid]

After FX is loading the MPEG for me, but it just wont reverse the pulldown (?).