LightWave 3D Propaganda Poster

[WilliamVaughan]

Created this poster thismorning and wanted to share. I'll post the straight render so you can see what is done in phtoshop and what is done in LW.

It's all LW except for texture overlay.

[WilliamVaughan]

Hereis the straight render. Zero images used, no post work on this one :)

[WilliamVaughan]

Here is a screen grab so you can see teh Layout setup. Even the type is LW :thumbsup:

[safarifx]

Here is a screen grab so you can see teh Layout setup. Even the type is LW :thumbsup:



please thats not funny william...i came from the eastside of germany from a f*cking communism system....and i hate
that ******* stupid man..."Lenin" alias "Wladimir Iljitsch Uljanow" was a bad psychobastard...this man kills many people for his ******* ideology....but..."art need not ideology"..."art will be free"....lightwave need not a dictator-atitude....(i think thats a joke from you ...but for me and my history is that totaly crap)

peace

snip safx

[WilliamVaughan]

slow down....just an image and not a LW marketing campaign. No offense intended..and I'm sure you know that.

Simply a propaganda style poster...nothing more

[art]

I originally came from the next country to the east. While I was quite surprised to see Lenin in this context, I did not feel offended by the image. I think it is somewhat amusing, but I understand how others might find it to be "not right".

[WilliamVaughan]

If it offends people I will remove it....if people feel it is needed.

[art]

I'm fine with it and I saved it while it lasts :) Let others speak.

[SonicMotion]

not offensive, just awesome!

[WilliamVaughan]

Here is the replacement for now.... This is a LightWave "Proton"Ganda Poster...

[Dirk]

I like the replacement muuuuch better :D

[WilliamVaughan]

I like the replacement muuuuch better :D


I think the replacement looks creepier

[CAClark]

The original was better, and I see no reason why anyone needed to get all unhinged about it. It was perfectly clear the context it was posted in, and is it the case that Lenin cannot be mentioned for fear of upsetting a few people who just need to think a little first to realise that it is not being posted in an offensive mannor.

Plus the objection could have been presented a more adult and elequent fashion.

Cheers!

[JasonMaynard]

Here is the replacement for now.... This is a LightWave "Proton"Ganda Poster...


I think i'm offended by this one :)

Joking aside they both are cool.. Especially because all was done in LW..

[jhogarty]

I like both of them. However I think it might look cool to have Tim's head/face on the poster. That would be cool. :)

J.

[WilliamVaughan]

Here is teh Wooden Teeth Propaganda image

[paulhart]

They are both very well done, and I for one have been waiting for the sketch effect render demonstration for some time now, thank you William Vaughn. Now for the resolution.... pose your image in the same posture and gesture, it makes the point, demonstrates the technique and parodies the style, without being likely??? to unsettle certain sensibilities.
Paul

[WilliamVaughan]

one more for the mix...might need to do a Washington vs Lincoln Boxing poster when I have time...

[mojotribe]

Just for clarification.
Communism killed many more people than an another younger brother in socialism - Adolf Hitler.
But its not politically correct...

Sorry, back to art.
Good work William.

[Weetos]

The one with Lenin was much more 'Propaganda' style - no matter what that guy have done, no matter how bad he was, he's part of history and associated to the concepts of propaganda - This is why the first images were so good

I'm not fond of communism, nazism and other systems that killed people but I can stand looking at a picture of Lenin or Hitler without complaining just as long as it serves no other purposes than Art - People please, this has nothing to do with the man, but only the symbol ! William's intention was pretty clear and made much sense to me.


Great shading, William ! Love the colors too :thumbsup:

[Wickster]

Awesome work William. I have no issues with it at all, as long as you don't create a Chuck Norris or the Hoff posters. :D

Did i miss the sketch render tutorial somewhere? I don't remember seeing one.

[JeffrySG]

I know William meant no offense, but most people don't have an issue until they see something that uses a symbol or image of some thing they find offensive or distasteful. This is a world community here and I think it's a good thing that we can be respectful of other peoples concerns. Not saying someone can't do something or another, but at least we should be aware of what thing will mean to other people. Then at least we can make informed decision of what to create. There is always a process of education going on. I didn't find the image distasteful, but I can now totally see how many people would find it to be. I was educated.


Back to the images... They are very cool and I love that like sketch look you've got going on William!

How does that effect look on an animated image? Might be cool for a short film...

[Derek Serra]

Awesome work William. I have no issues with it at all, as long as you don't create a Chuck Norris or the Hoff posters. :D




I second that!

[Julian_Boolean]

Here is the replacement for now.... This is a LightWave "Proton"Ganda Poster...

This reminds me of the "Dictator" that we had in school..... so many nightmares since then.... o man thats scary.... lol just kidding Will awesome work like usual

[UnCommonGrafx]

I, for one, appreciate your considering anothers perspective, William.

Appreciate your work, too.

[Captain Obvious]

I'll do one with Hitler when I get home!

[JeffrySG]

I'll do one with Hitler when I get home!

I was waiting for some one to go there! oh boy! :lol:

[WilliamVaughan]

I'll do one with Hitler when I get home!


I personally would have no issue with it...if it's a quality image Id love to see it!

[WilliamVaughan]

How does that effect look on an animated image? Might be cool for a short film...


We created an animated short in this style that we cant show publicly :(
http://www.marvinkmooney.com/

It holds up perfect in animation and I hope to accomplish two things come the start of the new year:

>.Another animated short in this style
>8 page COmic in this style

[mojotribe]

I personally would have no issue with it...if it's a quality image Id love to see it!

I second that!
regards
p.

[Bookman]

I can understand people haveing a negitive reaction to certain people, but those people are figures of history. And History is one of the best sources of knowlage and it is wrong to suppress it (atleast it wasn't a picture of Stalin ;P ).

Anyway that model came from a project that needed a statue of Lennin, big deal.

Cool Renders as usual Will, keep them comming. :)

[lardbros]

We created an animated short in this style that we cant show publicly :(
http://www.marvinkmooney.com/

It holds up perfect in animation and I hope to accomplish two things come the start of the new year:

>.Another animated short in this style
>8 page COmic in this style

That's very sad... it would be nice if large companies like that saw student projects as a good thing rather than as people trying to make money. It's surely in their interest to have their license strewn around?

I would have loved to see the sketch style all animated and.... sketchy.

As for the Lenin image, it's pretty cool. I can't say im offended in the slightest, but then I wouldn't be, it's got absolutely nothing to do with my country's history etc.

[BCazzell]

I think a Hoff one is pretty much mandatory. :)

[bluerider]

Thanks once again William for your valuable contribution to this forum, your work is awesome.

Also thanks for responding the way you did by creating another alternative. The style of this type of Political Art has always intrigued me from an artist perspective. Knowing William alias Proton, I most definitely know he had no intention of offense when making this image. Hes probably the most "apolitical" person i know as in; no interest or involvement in political affairs ; also : having an aversion to politics or political affairs

That fact that he apologized then rendered a version of himself was the right thing to do.

I think as the point has been proved though, using certain Characters will obviously raised objections.

I would appreciate we leave it as it is on the Dictator front. leave out the other chap mentioned as we already know what that will lead to. Or any other political dictator that's likely to cause offense.

I appeal now to your better judgment having read this thread, before anybody else considers throwing more flammable liquid on the fire.

[JeffrySG]

That's very sad... it would be nice if large companies like that saw student projects as a good thing rather than as people trying to make money. It's surely in their interest to have their license strewn around?

Yeah, even Lucasfilm is pretty fair when it comes to fan films, etc. It is a shame that the film will never be seen in public. If I was them I would have worked out some type of deal rather than make it go away. They can at least still have control of their brand but encourage non-profit creations like this. That's corporations for you.

[manholoz]

How about instead of Lenin, have Colonel Sanders (of Chicken restaurants fame)? I don't think it would be too hard to modify...

[WilliamVaughan]

Yeah, even Lucasfilm is pretty fair when it comes to fan films, etc. It is a shame that the film will never be seen in public. If I was them I would have worked out some type of deal rather than make it go away. They can at least still have control of their brand but encourage non-profit creations like this. That's corporations for you.

Sad thing is...we had all the source files for the ENTIRE animated short ready for download so that people could learn from the project by studying the source.

We were crushed but learned some valuable lessons. Like "It's better to ask for forgiveness then permission" :)

[geothefaust]

Well, I like the original the most. It kicks serious butt. Excellent propaganda poster. :thumbsup:

[WilliamVaughan]

This was one of my firsts tests after James put in the Sketchy Spec hits

[Hopper]

LOL .. with Williams likeness and particular pose... the slogan looks like it should be "We'll Finish The Job.... Dude." :D Awesome stuff

[Hopper]

Sad thing is...we had all the source files for the ENTIRE animated short ready for download so that people could learn from the project by studying the source.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

That's odd. I can draw a picture of a Coke can and give it to whomever I want. As a matter of fact, they can't do squat about you giving out any of that. What a load of you-know-what...

[JeffrySG]

Sad thing is...we had all the source files for the ENTIRE animated short ready for download so that people could learn from the project by studying the source.

We were crushed but learned some valuable lessons. Like "It's better to ask for forgiveness then permission" :)

OMG. That would have been so cool. Just like they do on the Blender projects.

What you need to do is modify the story to make it a PARODY of the entire ordeal. I don't think they could stop you then! Big loss for the community!

[Dexter2999]

I did a logo mock up for Homebuilt Stabilizers Group, where a wrench and a stabilizer arm cross (like a hammer and sickle) It offended some Eastern European members.

I can respect that. These symbols don't carry the same weight with people who didn't have to live under the oppression. Like in the U.S. a Confederate flag carries different meaning for different people.

I remember when the preliminary renders were posted here on the forum. Very impressive stuff. I suggested then, and I stand behind it, to write a story of your own in the style of Dr. Seuss. There are stories that reflect, pride, stubborness, democracy. Why not do a David and Goliath story about corporate greed vs. individual imagination and creativity? William, you have the talent and the penchant to create characters in the right style. A sing song slap in the face is just what the establishment needs.

[Sande]

That sketch-look is pretty impressing. I like the first image, but the font is out of place - something more cyrillic-looking would have worked much better. :)
--------------

There also seems to be a new breed of tyrants growing in the forums, who think they can dictate what kind of pictures, characters and themes others should create. Words can't express how much I dispise those hypocrites - and those condoning them.

[*Pete*]

If it offends people I will remove it....if people feel it is needed.

Lenin was different for differnt nations..he gave my Finland indepedence of Russia, so this poster is for me a "free the people" poster, altough m sure its seen differently by others...

most of the really bad stuff was done by Stalin anyway.....

[mojotribe]

There also seems to be a new breed of tyrants growing in the forums, who think they can dictate what kind of pictures, characters and themes others should create. Words can't express how much I dispise those hypocrites - and those condoning them.

Did you try to point out these "tyrantS"? Of course, with proofs.
thank you
p.

[JeffrySG]

There also seems to be a new breed of tyrants growing in the forums, who think they can dictate what kind of pictures, characters and themes others should create. Words can't express how much I dispise those hypocrites - and those condoning them.

I don't recall anyone saying that William can't do images like that. People were just expressing their opinion of what those images mean to them. That is free speech. Maybe that's what you have a problem with. Many people here, myself included, were not offended, but were understanding to the idea that it might have been to other people.

We should not have censorship but we should be aware and open to what ideas mean to different people. I would hope that we all would care if one of our images really offended someone. I know I would. I could at least make an informed decision next time I created one.

[UnCommonGrafx]

You do understand that yours is a post of an exemplary example of what you speak?
Control without control with a bit of hate tossed in (e.g. dispise{sic}).

This thing called civilization is a *****, huh?

--------------

There also seems to be a new breed of tyrants growing in the forums, who think they can dictate what kind of pictures, characters and themes others should create. Words can't express how much I dispise those hypocrites - and those condoning them.

[JeffrySG]

This thing called civilization is a *****, huh?

:agree:
Great way to put it. :)

[Intuition]

heh, The original cracks me up.

Nice image William. :thumbsup:

I am no lover of communism but I can see the kind of fun Proton must have had making it.

In the proper context, this image is pretty funny.

The sequel is even better tho! :D

[meshpig]

please thats not funny william...i came from the eastside of germany from a f*cking communism system....and i hate
that ******* stupid man..."Lenin" alias "Wladimir Iljitsch Uljanow" was a bad psychobastard...this man kills many people for his ******* ideology....but..."art need not ideology"..."art will be free"....lightwave need not a dictator-atitude....(i think thats a joke from you ...but for me and my history is that totaly crap)

peace

snip safx

Easy. Lenin was murdered by Stalin very early on so it's hard to imagine the GDR was ever actually "Communist" in the Leninist sense.

Dictators usually pervert History so Wladimir Iljitsch Uljanow is no different from General Pinoche, Ferdinand Marcos, Edi Amih, Slobodan Milosovich, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Kim Jong Il, Suharto, Franco, Gadaffi, Fidel Castro, Robert Mugabe, Saddam Hussein... etc . etc.


- Ivan the Terrible, king Henry the 8th, Emperor Nero, Catherine the Great, Napoleon 2, Pope IV, Elizabeth II, the Yellow Emperor... etc. etc. back to the dawn of the Neolithic period.

Yep, only the Commis kill people en masse.


m

[Sande]

I try my best to reply and clarify to you all:

First of all, I apologize my angry words and attitude in my first post. It was completely uncalled for here. If I may explain, I came here after a heated debate on the same subject on an other forum and was already quite tired and angry when I stumbled upon this thread. I'm sorry.

Did you try to point out these "tyrantS"? Of course, with proofs.
Not sure what you mean by "proofs"? Quoting someone?
This is not the only, or even anywhere near the worst, thread where something like that has happened - and maybe that's confusing people (that and my previous attitude, of course). This was just the thread that finally made me respond.

What I mainly targeted at (in this thread) was comments like:
"That fact that he apologized then rendered a version of himself was the right thing to do.

I think as the point has been proved though, using certain Characters will obviously raised objections.

I would appreciate we leave it as it is on the Dictator front. leave out the other chap mentioned as we already know what that will lead to. Or any other political dictator that's likely to cause offense."
Yes, he is probably not trying to do any harm, acting on good faith and just trying to maintain peace, but that is just something that I think is quite dangerous path to take.

There is absolutely nothing wrong at telling what you think or feel of an image or subject - but we shouldn't try to limit others based on our personal or cultural background, views of the world and so on.


I don't recall anyone saying that William can't do images like that. People were just expressing their opinion of what those images mean to them. That is free speech. Maybe that's what you have a problem with.

Nope, trust me, that is not what I have problem with. Freedom of speech and freedom of expression IS the whole point here, though. I already quoted in my reply to mojotribe which was the part that finally triggered my response. Please bear in mind that I was not referring to just this thread.
Again, and I try to be very clear, disapproving some image or subject, hating the characters, themes and so on - and sympathising with those who do - is ok.

We should not have censorship but we should be aware and open to what ideas mean to different people. I would hope that we all would care if one of our images really offended someone. I know I would. I could at least make an informed decision next time I created one.

I agree, but in my opinion, you seem to approach this the wrong way...
Making an image which is a deliberate attack on people without any artistic merit is one thing, but generally there isn't a whole lot of subjects which couldn't offend someone. There are images of churches, waving American flags and stuff like that here all the time and most of the people don't care - because those may not be insulting to them.

Should we not create images which may offend someone? Should we spend our time thinking if there is someone out there who could be offended by our art? No. When we see an image that offends us we should tolerate it - we should not try censorship or ban subjects just because they may offend someone.

This is not about trying to offend people, this is about accepting that with freedom of expression there will always be some images and subjects that may offend us and when there are, we should tolerate them. That naturally doesn't mean we should approve or like everything we see.
Like I said earlier, telling what you think of image or subject is one thing, telling that people shouldn't create those kind of images is another.

You do understand that yours is a post of an exemplary example of what you speak?
Control without control with a bit of hate tossed in (e.g. dispise{sic}).

This thing called civilization is a *****, huh?
For the hate-part, I apologize. You are, however, missing the point here.
How much intolerance should we tolerate? Freedom of speech isn't black and white - when those who are intolerant endanger that freedom, we should act.

Like I said, I admit that I was harsh and I'm sorry for that, but I really am quite sick and tired of all that unneeded "political correctness" and self censoring that is going around - and not just here... I guess this really started to bug me after those Muhammad caricatures and when sheeps like Bush and Jack Straw didn't saw it necessary to defend our freedom of expression.

Of course in this case, NewTek's forums are their own and they can moderate these as they wish and that is completely understandable - but I hope we could also leave that moderating part to them.

[A Mejias]

Well, I'm not offended, but I think it should say, "LightWave 3D Will finish the job!" instead. :-)

Speaking of tyrants, I'm more offended when kids wear Che Guevara t-shirts. History may repeat itself.

Very cool technique!

slow down....just an image and not a LW marketing campaign. No offense intended..and I'm sure you know that.

Simply a propaganda style poster...nothing more

[wacom]

Oh man- you made the same mistake so many others of us have made in the US!

Well, all I can say is that I was working on a project for a certain server chip manufacture that was to be run in eastern Europe, and we tried to go with this "power daddy/respect/knowledge" type of imagery and they HATED it! This after working really hard on some 3D mock-ups and vector images.

I have to add it wasn't my fault- I was following the AD's orders and minding my Ps and Qs, but the art history side of my brain was saying "uh-oh" since our client, at least this branch of it, was based out of Poland!

I slept through too many art history and history classes to be sure...but I think Poland has a history of getting treated fairly badly by at least two regimes that used such imagery- the soviets and the nazis.

Here it's just "power deco" and the like to us- force in numbers- unions, organized "folk" moments, Atlas shrugged covers etc., but over there it's left some REALLY deep wounds- deeper than I ever could have predicted!

It's a cultural divide though- not insensitivity IMHO. Unfortunately you too fell in the gap Proton!

[JeffrySG]

William, if you're going to do any more updates, here's a link to a free typeface that might look really cool.

http://www.abstractfonts.com/font/13164?text=

65508

[A Mejias]

Yeah, but you don't have to go too far. My parents are Cuban and lived (barely) through 2 revolutions. That's only about 100 miles from our shores.

I'm of the opinion that if the imagery and symbols are used in the right contexts and the concepts executed well, that not only would they not be offensive, but also instructive and inspiring.

Take for example the graphic novel "Superman: Red Son!" Even my Dad thought it was a cool concept. You all should go out and read!!!

Oh, and the action figures are way cool! http://www.dccomics.com/dcdirect/?dcd=9081&lst=all&cat=ACTION+FIGURES


Oh man- you made the same mistake so many others of us have made in the US!

Well, all I can say is that I was working on a project for a certain server chip manufacture that was to be run in eastern Europe, and we tried to go with this "power daddy/respect/knowledge" type of imagery and they HATED it! This after working really hard on some 3D mock-ups and vector images.

I have to add it wasn't my fault- I was following the AD's orders and minding my Ps and Qs, but the art history side of my brain was saying "uh-oh" since our client, at least this branch of it, was based out of Poland!

I slept through too many art history and history classes to be sure...but I think Poland has a history of getting treated fairly badly by at least two regimes that used such imagery- the soviets and the nazis.

Here it's just "power deco" and the like to us- force in numbers- unions, organized "folk" moments, Atlas shrugged covers etc., but over there it's left some REALLY deep wounds- deeper than I ever could have predicted!

It's a cultural divide though- not insensitivity IMHO. Unfortunately you too fell in the gap Proton!

[Stooch]

chill out. he could have used hitler... but then again, you being german you probably wont have as much of a problem right?

please thats not funny william...i came from the eastside of germany from a f*cking communism system....and i hate
that ******* stupid man..."Lenin" alias "Wladimir Iljitsch Uljanow" was a bad psychobastard...this man kills many people for his ******* ideology....but..."art need not ideology"..."art will be free"....lightwave need not a dictator-atitude....(i think thats a joke from you ...but for me and my history is that totaly crap)

peace

snip safx

[Stooch]

I personally love the first one. it actually fits the propaganda style. id like to see a male and a female worker holding a sickle (lw logo shaped) and a hammer, or a kalashnikov. staring into the distance with their chin up high.

you gotta focus on the workers when doing propaganda style. its supposed to be all about power of the people :)
plus it wont offend certain peoples sensibilities, not that im one to care about these things lol.

[rakker16mm]

I liked the first poster as well, and I think it is the strongest... especially if you want the "Propaganda" look and feel. Also consider the irony. Lenin would be turning in his display case if he saw it.

[pixelranger]

WTF... does the whole internet have PMS these days or what?!? The same goes for a certain thread that turned into an xp vs vista thread... childish....

Exellent work, William. Love the style. Especially on the self portrait and the goblin.
Old ussr propaganda-art ftw.

[zardoz]

yep I couldn't agree more with pixelranger. With the number of religions, races, etc in the world, one of these days we can't do anything because we offend someone. Come on guys, quit the fundamentalism!

Great work William. I love WW2, Russian, etc propaganda. Really good stuff. Can't wait for the next HDRI to read about it.

[kopperdrake]

LOL - I love the Elizabeth II you squeezed in there - no wonder you guys want out of the Commonwealth if she's seen in that light :hey:

- Ivan the Terrible, king Henry the 8th, Emperor Nero, Catherine the Great, Napoleon 2, Pope IV, Elizabeth II, the Yellow Emperor... etc. etc. back to the dawn of the Neolithic period.

Love the effect William - I admire the propoganda style of artwork - clever stuff.

[wacom]

Well you guys can continue to think this is some kind of politically correct thing, but please- there are certain parts of the world that have been "gang rapped" by other cultures and such for centuries. While I don't find the image at all offensive- please try and walk in those people's shoes before passing judgment.

For instance- what if Hitler had mad it to the main Is. in the UK and had ruled it for 20 years- killing and crushing any resistance. Many of you would have family that was killed or sent to prison camps etc., ruined you countries culture. Let's pretend that until a few years ago a statue of Hitler was placed on top of Big Ben.

With me still? Now pretend that I'm calling you Brits a bunch of cry babies for giving a rats *** that I made a poster with an image of that statue of Hitler on it. If one of you can tell me you can't see how that would be offensive to some than you really need your head checked.

This is what happened to many of the eastern block countries. I don't blame William V. for making the first image- he didn't understand at the time, but please don't be-little people who lived through that mess.

So maybe for you guys Proton should make one with a lynching tree since you'll be able to make some kind of elaborate, misconstrued story about how it's about freedom from slavery and moving forward?

This is a graphic poster- not a freaking dissertation- so it needs to be handled accordingly. I guess that's my take after making so many posters and working closely with advertisers. THERE IS NO illegitimate first thought or feeling about such an image if you want it to hold up.

Like I said though- I in no way blame Proton for falling into this gap- but don't try and smooth it over with ignorance- lets understand it and move on to something better. There are ways to evoke the positive sentiments such images give us without using the direct imagery- just look at any of the deco "power" images from that era- and they stand for a completely different form of society and governance.

PS- a lot more people died in Russian prison camps, under very harsh conditions, than even under the hand of the Nazis. There is a lot of world history that doesn't make it into our "history" books but is just a few shovels in a shallow grave away.

[wacom]

Great work William. I love WW2, Russian, etc propaganda. Really good stuff. Can't wait for the next HDRI to read about it.

There is no debating that the style used in those posters etc. during that time was even more brilliant than it was misguided in use. I think we're all a creative enough bunch though to take from it, not just re-hash it.

[Stooch]

i find it ******** taht a german who had no direct impact on him by lenin has the nerve to sit here and preach political correctness when hitler had far more impact on the rest of the world that lenin ever did.

also stalin was a tyrant but he was mainly a tyrant to the soviets, not the germans. the germans had it coming with the third reich anyway.

but this is the 21st century and art is art. even though i should have more to complain about lenin and stalin since my culture was the most severely affected, i know that if someone makes a 3d picture of it they are just creating art, not trying to opress anyone. infact sitting here and *****ing is doing more opressing than creating the art in the first place.

Well you guys can continue to think this is some kind of politically correct thing, but please- there are certain parts of the world that have been "gang rapped" by other cultures and such for centuries. While I don't find the image at all offensive- please try and walk in those people's shoes before passing judgment.

For instance- what if Hitler had mad it to the main Is. in the UK and had ruled it for 20 years- killing and crushing any resistance. Many of you would have family that was killed or sent to prison camps etc., ruined you countries culture. Let's pretend that until a few years ago a statue of Hitler was placed on top of Big Ben.

With me still? Now pretend that I'm calling you Brits a bunch of cry babies for giving a rats *** that I made a poster with an image of that statue of Hitler on it. If one of you can tell me you can't see how that would be offensive to some than you really need your head checked.

This is what happened to many of the eastern block countries. I don't blame William V. for making the first image- he didn't understand at the time, but please don't be-little people who lived through that mess.

So maybe for you guys Proton should make one with a lynching tree since you'll be able to make some kind of elaborate, misconstrued story about how it's about freedom from slavery and moving forward?

This is a graphic poster- not a freaking dissertation- so it needs to be handled accordingly. I guess that's my take after making so many posters and working closely with advertisers. THERE IS NO illegitimate first thought or feeling about such an image if you want it to hold up.

Like I said though- I in no way blame Proton for falling into this gap- but don't try and smooth it over with ignorance- lets understand it and move on to something better. There are ways to evoke the positive sentiments such images give us without using the direct imagery- just look at any of the deco "power" images from that era- and they stand for a completely different form of society and governance.

PS- a lot more people died in Russian prison camps, under very harsh conditions, than even under the hand of the Nazis. There is a lot of world history that doesn't make it into our "history" books but is just a few shovels in a shallow grave away.

[wacom]

i find it ******** taht a german who had no direct impact on him by lenin has the nerve to sit here and preach political correctness when hitler had far more impact on the rest of the world that lenin ever did.

also stalin was a tyrant but he was mainly a tyrant to the soviets, not the germans. the germans had it coming with the third reich anyway.

but this is the 21st century and art is art. even though i should have more to complain about lenin and stalin since my culture was the most severely affected, i know that if someone makes a 3d picture of it they are just creating art, not trying to opress anyone. infact sitting here and *****ing is doing more opressing than creating the art in the first place.

There is no point in arguing with you since this is all about your feelings and very little fact- which is part of the point I was trying to make about the person in E. Germany. You gotta respect the man even if you disagree with him, but if you are going to disagree try to be a bit more constructive about it.

On one hand you're expecting everyone to act like robots and act "logical" but then in making your own point you become helplessly human and your point is then moot.

Arguing isn't *****ing BTW- nor does is being sympathetic always make you a "*****". I'd argue that in many instances it takes more of a "man" to relinquish ones own bias to see someone else's point of view.

So you like the US? Rule #1 is to try and practice tolerance when ever you can. With out it this country would have collapsed long ago. If that's too touchy-feely for you then you haven't lived around people who differ from you enough to see it takes quite a bit of effort.

Rule #2 debate the F' out of everything- nothing is sacred and there is no right answer until history proves it so. If you don't like this "*****ing" that we call having a constructive conversation here then go back and live under Mr. Putin and the likes of the KGB. What? That's what I thought- so let's continue to debate this and try not to get to personal at the same time.

To add- any real artist, illustrator, or designer worth jack knows that images are powerful- your last comment makes it sound like it's all fluff.

[Stooch]

excuse me? whats "little fact" about my post? you want to tell me that lenin had more impact on germans than russians?

what you are going to tell me to go back to russia because i have an opinion? how about STFUing if there is no point arguing with me.

as far as me being in america, im here and there is nothing you can do about it.

now have compassion for my POV if you are so compassionaite. all i stated that art is art and to live and let live. you gotta problem with that?

so "be a man" and see my pov instead of being a typical american hypocrite.

[Stooch]

So you like the US? Rule #1 is to try and practice tolerance when ever you can. With out it this country would have collapsed long ago. If that's too touchy-feely for you then you haven't lived around people who differ from you enough to see it takes quite a bit of effort.

Rule #2 debate the F' out of everything- nothing is sacred and there is no right answer until history proves it so. If you don't like this "*****ing" that we call having a constructive conversation here then go back and live under Mr. Putin and the likes of the KGB. What? That's what I thought- so let's continue to debate this and try not to get to personal at the same time.

is that your idea of tolerance?

ok. so what are you going to do if i dont go back to russia? what? thats what i thought.

i dont know, from my pov you are getting pretty personal...

[bluerider]

we need to move this debate to a political forum. :)